Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

[Dave Blackhurst]

I don't really care about 24P, but I'll join in the chorus that says it makes sense to include the feature... it's firmware most likely, not hardware, so why not, if only for the marketing advantage?

Trying to find an apt car analogy... it'd be like saying not everybody wants or uses the passenger side mirror... so lets just leave it off entirely...

[Chris Barcellos]

I just realized something. I have become a Canon fanboy..... .something I had not expected, when I started with Sony consumer cams, then my VX2000 and then went to the FX1. FIrst Canon was the HV20 with 24fps capability, and now the 5 D and T2i.

Back to this camera, the other necessity in my mind is that the interchangeable lens capability easily extend to the good glass all of us have floating around in our bags-- again something that is easily doable with the Canon DSLRs, but that appears won't be so easy or clean with this camera. I can slap on my old Nikon and Pentax lenses with great easy on my Canon DSLRs, and hope Sony's cameras will have that potential as they gear up in the interchangeable lens arena.

[Ozzy Alvarez]

Let's all keep in mind that the VG10 is a consumer camcorder with MSRP of $2,000. I've come to notice that whenever Sony offers 24P on a camcorder, it's usually on a Pro or Prosumer camcorder with a price of $3,000 or above. It might be that a possible future Pro version of the VG10 might have 24P. The $2,000 priced FX7 doesn't offer 24P while it's pro version, the V1, priced over $3,000 does offer 24P.

[Robert Young]

Originally Posted by Ozzy Alvarez

Let's all keep in mind that the VG10 is a consumer camcorder with MSRP of $2,000. I've come to notice that whenever Sony offers 24P on a camcorder, it's usually on a Pro or Prosumer camcorder with a price of $3,000 or above. It might be that a possible future Pro version of the VG10 might have 24P. The $2,000 priced FX7 doesn't offer 24P while it's pro version, the V1, priced over $3,000 does offer 24P.

Precisely the game!!
I'm certain that Sony segments the camera features across a spectrum of prices strictly as marketing strategy rather than technology limits.
Consider their vast video camera offerings- from $200- $200,000. That's a lot of balls to keep in the air.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Ozzy Alvarez

Let's all keep in mind that the VG10 is a consumer camcorder with MSRP of $2,000.

For some perspective, the Canon T2i/550D is a consumer still camera with an MSRP of $799 and it shoots 24, 25, and 29.97p.

[Graham Hickling]

Similarly, the Pana HMC40 is sub-$2000 and shoots 24P, 29.97P and 60P (plus interlaced, of course, but let's not go there).

[Glen Vandermolen]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

For some perspective, the Canon T2i/550D is a consumer still camera with an MSRP of $799 and it shoots 24, 25, and 29.97p.

Well, to be fair, the VG10 comes with an $800 lens, about the same price of the T2i body. I'm assuming the Sony lens is a very good one.
I've looked at T2i sample clips on Vimeo and YouTube and, when done properly, the videos are very impressive. So, regarding the VG10s or the Canon DSLRs, which has a more NLE- friendly codec? If I shot video with either and brought it to a post production house, which would be easier for the editor to work with?

Originally Posted by Graham Hickling

Similarly, the Pana HMC40 is sub-$2000 and shoots 24P, 29.97P and 60P (plus interlaced, of course, but let's not go there).

The HMC40 has 1/4" CMOS chips? No thanks, no matter what the frame rate. Isn't that the whole idea behind the VG10 - to have a camcorder with a very large imager?

[Chuck Fadely]

There are already lots of E-Mount lens adapters on ebay. The back focus distance on the E Mount is so short you can use Leica M-mount lenses - something you can't do with a Canon dlsr.

That makes this camera interesting. As long as a lens has a manual aperture ring, you should be able to use it.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I just realized something. I have become a Canon fanboy..... .something I had not expected, when I started with Sony consumer cams, then my VX2000 and then went to the FX1. FIrst Canon was the HV20 with 24fps capability, and now the 5 D and T2i.

Back to this camera, the other necessity in my mind is that the interchangeable lens capability easily extend to the good glass all of us have floating around in our bags-- again something that is easily doable with the Canon DSLRs, but that appears won't be so easy or clean with this camera. I can slap on my old Nikon and Pentax lenses with great easy on my Canon DSLRs, and hope Sony's cameras will have that potential as they gear up in the interchangeable lens arena.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

Well, to be fair, the VG10 comes with an $800 lens, about the same price of the T2i body. I'm assuming the Sony lens is a very good one.

True, but irrelevant. The question wasn't about lenses lenses but about whether it's reasonable to expect 24p even at the low-end. Besides, the VG10 without the lens is still about 50% more expensive than the T2i, and still no 24p.

The HMC40 has 1/4" CMOS chips? No thanks, no matter what the frame rate. Isn't that the whole idea behind the VG10 - to have a camcorder with a very large imager?

Again, chip size is irrelevant to the discussion. (If you don't like quarter-inch sensors, then you won't like Panasonic's $21K AG-3DA1 3-D camera -- "1/4.1-inch" sensors.) What's being discussed is whether 24p should be expected in a low-end camera.

[Glen Vandermolen]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bansbach

True, but irrelevant. The question wasn't about lenses lenses but about whether it's reasonable to expect 24p even at the low-end. Besides, the VG10 without the lens is still about 50% more expensive than the T2i, and still no 24p.


Again, chip size is irrelevant to the discussion. (If you don't like quarter-inch sensors, then you won't like Panasonic's $21K AG-3DA1 3-D camera -- "1/4.1-inch" sensors.) What's being discussed is whether 24p should be expected in a low-end camera.

No, I understood the relevance. I may have worded my response poorly. Just trying to keep the costs in perspective. The VG10 doesn't have 24P, we got that. Who knows why it doesn't? I'm sure there are other Sony cams near the 2 grand price range that do shoot in various progressive rates, which makes it all the more perplexing.

The VG10 does have a flip-out monitor, a tiltable viewfinder, something I like in video cameras. It has a good audio system built it. I believe the AVCHD format is a robust one. It doesn't have 24P, but it does have some other nice video camera features the DSLRs lack.

I believe chip size is relevant to the discussion. I didn't bring a 1/4" chip camera in for comparison, someone else did. I know they were referring to 24P, but how many other large sensor, interchangeable lens, dedicated VIDEO CAMERAS are out there for this price? That was the point - there are none. 24P or not, right now it has no equal.
I've shot with 1/4" CMOS cams. I prefer not to. I know the Panny 3D model has them, I saw it at NAB. Interesting, that at their display, they didn't emphasize the sensor package. I had to ask several demo people before I got an answer.
I'll admit, I'm far more interested in a camera's sensor size than I am in its frame rates. If 24P is a game-changer, then this is not the camera for you. But hey, maybe there will be a software fix to that.

Edit - Sensor size takes on a whole new meaning with 3D cameras. Shallow depth of field doesn't seem to be as relevant when you can make objects appear closer or further away with 3D cameras. And you can adjust the distance perspective, it's really weird. I tried it at the Panny display, it's not easy to do at all. The low light performance will still suffer with smaller chips, though.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

I believe chip size is relevant to the discussion. I didn't bring a 1/4" chip camera in for comparison, someone else did. I know they were referring to 24P, but how many other large sensor, interchangeable lens, dedicated VIDEO CAMERAS are out there for this price? That was the point - there are none. 24P or not, right now it has no equal.

Including the VG10, right now there are none. Sure, the VG10 will be the first large-sensor, interchangeable-lens, prosumer video camera released, but it certainly won't be the last. And if Canon -- who's gotten a lot of press with films and TV shows being shot with its HD-vDSLRs -- releases an otherwise comparable (and comparably priced) APS-C video camera with 24p, which will be a better deal?

[Glen Vandermolen]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bansbach

Including the VG10, right now there are none. Sure, the VG10 will be the first large-sensor, interchangeable-lens, prosumer video camera released, but it certainly won't be the last. And if Canon -- who's gotten a lot of press with films and TV shows being shot with its HD-vDSLRs -- releases an otherwise comparable (and comparably priced) APS-C video camera with 24p, which will be a better deal?

Well, since the Canon you described is vaporware, there's no telling which would be better. The Canon could have a worse codec, or bad moire', who knows? Actually, we don't even know if the VG10 will live up to its own billing. Time will tell. But it would be nice to have more camera choices.

I think the closest we can come right now to the VG10 is the Panny AF-100, and we know even less about that camera. It should have 24P and XLR inputs, which is great. It will probably cost about 3 times as much, too. And will it come with a lens? Will it be worth 3, maybe 4 times the cost of the Sony? I guess it depends on the user's preferences and needs.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

Well, since the Canon you described is vaporware, there's no telling which would be better. The Canon could have a worse codec, or bad moire', who knows? Actually, we don't even know if the VG10 will live up to its own billing. Time will tell. But it would be nice to have more camera choices.

Actually, the Canon I described is not even vaporware. Canon has made no announcements at all regarding an APS-C video camera.

I think the closest we can come right now to the VG10 is the Panny AF-100, and we know even less about that camera. It should have 24P and XLR inputs, which is great. It will probably cost about 3 times as much, too. And will it come with a lens? Will it be worth 3, maybe 4 times the cost of the Sony? I guess it depends on the user's preferences and needs.

Although I have been flamed for my opinion on this matter, I personally don't think it is, given that it's a larger-sensor version of the HMC150 with a $2,800 premium. Although the the HMC150 doesn't have HD-SDI, it has a more complex (and probably more expensive) image block and comes with a lens. And while the AF100 was previously tentatively priced at "around $6,000," according to this informal report from the Panasonic When It Counts Road Show, the price of the AF100 was given as "under 10K" (it's unclear whether this price includes a lens, although none of Panasonic's current 4/3 options is worth the $4K difference).

[Glen Vandermolen]

Thanks for the info, Lawrence.

The AF-100 - "under $10,000??" Ugh. Just ugh. The VG10 and DSLRs are looking a lot better.

[Robert Young]

I think that the VG10 is a probe by Sony: they've tossed it out into the pond to see who will bite and what they'll say. It is modestly featured but priced to be tempting to anyone who is interested in getting their feet wet with APS chip video.
If it goes well, I can imagine down the road a 4 lb. cam with a single APS chip, an expanded selection of E lenses, and the feature set of the EX1 in the $4-$6K price range.