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Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900
Interchangeable lens AVCHD camcorders using E-Mount lenses.


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Old October 18th, 2010, 09:32 PM   #541
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"In the case of the consumer software the PsF footage can be happily edited on an interlaced timeline. There would be no loss of info. The issue then really comes when it gets to final encoding. But in actual fact it shouldn't make much difference.

Lets say that you have 1920x1080 50i PsF footage and you edit it in your NLE on a 50i timeline. No deinterlacing or loss of line info takes place in that case. Now you want to output a 1920x1080 sequence for Vimeo or YouTube."

I agree, BUT if any scaling is done there will be a vertical resolution loss. Why? Because each field will be scaled individually and then recombined. During the scale, all the lines are NOT together, so they cannot be used for the scaling math. PIP and 3D FX will suffer.

Moreover, when you export to H.264, you need to be VERY sure your NLE does not assume H264 is progressive (which is what Apple does) and then auto-deinterlace the 1080i Sequence. (One needs all 1080-lines for the WDTV.)

When you export a 1080i file and upload to a website, the website may auto-deinterlace. With 720p internet video there will be a serious visible loss. But, with 1080p now being supported, there will be a visible loss. If you can export an H.264 file without auto-deinterlacing, then this is the way to go.

===========

FCP forces a deinterlace of every I clip when it is used in a P Sequence.

Since Apple seems not to document what kind of deinterlacing is used, for speed it might well be bob which is a 40% drop in vertical resolution. About the same would occur if blend were used.

I do know that iMovie forces deinterlacing.

So if you use a 1080p Sequence, you must change every clip to P. Therefore, you must be sure your NLE offers this capability!
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; October 19th, 2010 at 06:13 AM.
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Old October 19th, 2010, 03:39 PM   #542
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No viewfinder image, when using the HDMI terminal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Little View Post
Please, I am dying to know if the HDMI connection puts out uncompressed HD that can be used with a Nanoflash. Has anyone tested it?
I was planning to test the VG10 and nanoFlash today...
But just before I left, I connected a HDMI cable to a monitor... and discovered the camera stopped feeding a video signal to both the viewfinder and LCD panel.

Unless I've done something wrong… it appears, if you want to uses a nanoFlash, KiPro Mini or Ninja, it means adding a HD monitor to the camera.

Does anyone know if it's technically possible to change this in firmware?
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Old October 19th, 2010, 05:38 PM   #543
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I've read this before, that HDMI out disables all of the camera monitors.
There is a firmware update for VG10 scheduled for Nov, but I haven't seen exactly what issues it will address.
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Old October 19th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Kerrigan View Post
I was planning to test the VG10 and nanoFlash today...
But just before I left, I connected a HDMI cable to a monitor... and discovered the camera stopped feeding a video signal to both the viewfinder and LCD panel.

Unless I've done something wrong… it appears, if you want to uses a nanoFlash, KiPro Mini or Ninja, it means adding a HD monitor to the camera.

Does anyone know if it's technically possible to change this in firmware?
Does pressing the Finder / LCD button do anything to toggle the display state?
Just throwing out ideas...

<Edit>

Whoops, my bad. On page 34 of the Owners Manual, under 'Notes' it states: "No image is displayed on the viewfinder and LCD monitor when signals are output via the HDMI terminal."

Last edited by Bill Koehler; October 19th, 2010 at 06:35 PM. Reason: More information...
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Old October 24th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #545
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Well....bit the bullet big time.

I shoot about 5 weddings a year and misc projects, up till now with my PD170 and VX2000. I nearly went HD earlier this summer, but the downscaling issues for DVD output made me ask myself: why? My PD/VX are just as sharp on DVD as any HD, and better in low light than any. Workflow is simple. Clients are happy.

Another hobby of mine has been backcountry photography where I've been using just a super-zoom pani. Horrible noise in the long shots.

So I started to look at alternatives last week and came across the NEX cameras. I settled on the NEX-5, but I needed the big lens, which is 900.00 if you can find it.

Then I noticed a bunch of my searchs also pulled the VG10 which comes with the 18-200. Found this thread and read some more reviews.

End result: just ordered Nex-5 two lens bundle (16 + 18-55) 799.00 + the VG10 from adorama for a total cost of 2798. from adorama. Ouch!

Of course I'm terrified of the manual zoom and DOF focus issues for weddings, but the season is over and I'll have time to figure it out.

I could have held out for a red scarlet and REALLY spent some dough, but I'm excited to try this setup.

TY to all for the great posts and reflections!

Would love to get some advice on which memory cards to try...

Last edited by Charlie Webster; October 24th, 2010 at 05:05 PM.
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Old October 24th, 2010, 05:06 PM   #546
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I could have held out for a red scarlet and REALLY spent some dough, but I'm excited to try this setup.
You'd be waiting a long time- RED has finally announced that they are abandoning the Scarlet prosumer product.
The VG 10 is a fun camera that is capable of beautiful photography.
There are a couple of issues:
1) Focus is a big issue- even at f-5,6,7 DOF is shallow enough to be noticable. The auto focus works pretty well, but like all of them, it's not bulletproof. You can press the "Photo" button and the camera will refocus and light up the sensors it is using- at least this tells you what the cam is looking at.
2) Low light is not terrific due to the slow stock lens (f-3.5). You may need to get a faster prime lens to get best low light. Sony is adding several new lenses to their E-Lens series in 2011.
3) Exposure control- to maintain control of both iris and shutter in daylight, you will need to add ND filters, or IMO the best solution, a variable ND filter like the "VariND". Your PD-170 has them built in, the VG10 does not.
4) Image stability- the OIS and IS features on the VG10 are pretty good, but not as effective as I've seen on some of the small chip cams (CX550, for example). Camera movement, particularly "roll" can really spoil an HD shot. You may find a monopod gives more reliable stability than handheld.
5) Manual Zoom- The zoom is rather stiff when new, but loosens and smooths out a bit with use. Nonetheless, handheld zooming is quite difficult. It is definitely more doable with a monopod. You will very likely be cutting back on your zoom shots.
6) Memory cards- either Sony Duo, or SD cards. I've used both, it makes no difference- just be sure the card is rated to handle the max data rate of the camera.
You will enjoy this camera.
There is a learning curve- it is quite different from using the PD-170, and the images will have a very different look than you are accustomed to.
For wedding photography, you should be able to create a really beautiful, more cinematic looking product once you learn the camera.
Have fun!!
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Old October 25th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #547
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Quote:
You will very likely be cutting back on your zoom shots.
Good. Anything that stops people zooming during a shot is a good thing!
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Old October 25th, 2010, 01:34 AM   #548
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Good. Anything that stops people zooming during a shot is a good thing!
Agreed!!
I'm not missing it a bit.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 03:27 AM   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Young View Post
You'd be waiting a long time- RED has finally announced that they are abandoning the Scarlet prosumer product.
The VG 10 is a fun camera that is capable of beautiful photography.
There are a couple of issues:
1) Focus is a big issue- even at f-5,6,7 DOF is shallow enough to be noticable. The auto focus works pretty well, but like all of them, it's not bulletproof. You can press the "Photo" button and the camera will refocus and light up the sensors it is using- at least this tells you what the cam is looking at.
2) Low light is not terrific due to the slow stock lens (f-3.5). You may need to get a faster prime lens to get best low light. Sony is adding several new lenses to their E-Lens series in 2011.
3) Exposure control- to maintain control of both iris and shutter in daylight, you will need to add ND filters, or IMO the best solution, a variable ND filter like the "VariND". Your PD-170 has them built in, the VG10 does not.
4) Image stability- the OIS and IS features on the VG10 are pretty good, but not as effective as I've seen on some of the small chip cams (CX550, for example). Camera movement, particularly "roll" can really spoil an HD shot. You may find a monopod gives more reliable stability than handheld.
5) Manual Zoom- The zoom is rather stiff when new, but loosens and smooths out a bit with use. Nonetheless, handheld zooming is quite difficult. It is definitely more doable with a monopod. You will very likely be cutting back on your zoom shots.
6) Memory cards- either Sony Duo, or SD cards. I've used both, it makes no difference- just be sure the card is rated to handle the max data rate of the camera.
You will enjoy this camera.
There is a learning curve- it is quite different from using the PD-170, and the images will have a very different look than you are accustomed to.
For wedding photography, you should be able to create a really beautiful, more cinematic looking product once you learn the camera.
Have fun!!
Bob TY for drilling down on the basic issues.

I always use a monopod (though of course sometimes it's retracted)---so that won't be a change---but I rarely touch the lens--I will learn.

Simon--amen! I have cursed myself many times while editing for too much zooming---that friggen button is dying to be played with. Never looks great---best is a fast zoom to a new steady frame size.

I'm very interested to see the low light performance- hoping it will be at least as good as the PD with wide adapter in place.

Don't tell me I need one of these:

SAL-70200G | 70-200mm f/2.8 Telephoto Zoom Lens | Sony | Sony Style USA

or maybe more practical: SAL-2875 28-75mm f/2.8 SAM Constant Aperture

November firmware update will be interesting to see if these lenses are viable for video.

PS: the low light sure looks good here:

http://vimeo.com/groups/nexvg10/videos/15206564

however check the last few seconds of this clip


wow. that's a fast lens. I see what you are talking about.

maybe a Sony SAL-50F14

Last edited by Charlie Webster; October 25th, 2010 at 04:31 AM.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 09:09 AM   #550
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[QUOTE=Robert Young;1581772]You'd be waiting a long time- RED has finally announced that they are abandoning the Scarlet prosumer product.

Are you sure about that Robert. Do you have a link to this anouncement? I thought that the price has changed a tad but by a grand or so plus it is having the HDR added but I do think that it's not abandoned.Delays yes....
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Last edited by Henry Olonga; October 25th, 2010 at 10:44 AM.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 09:20 AM   #551
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I think Robert might be confusing reports that RED had "abandoned" the consumer market. As Henry notes, they say they still plan to ship Scarlet, but it will be more expensive, and they are changing it's target market. They had thought they could go after the consumer DSLR market.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 10:20 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Henry Olonga View Post
it's not abandoned.Delays yes....
oh come on, give me a brake, 2 years is not a delay :)
Scarlet is an urban legend
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Old October 25th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #553
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Buba - that is still a delay - a two year one - but still a delay. Show me a post where they say it is scrapped and I will agree. Ikonoskop are in the same place.

You seem like the typical Red hater and skeptic. I am not a fanboy but you gotta give it to them - they are pushing the envelope quite a bit. I visit the forum often to check progress.Yes they have failed to meet projections but I believe that they acknowledge that. The hype they create can be nauseating to some - yes . But folk who end up hating RED have lost perspective.....where can you get the specs they are offering at the prices they are offering elsewhere? Of course when they ship.................

Just so you know they have showed off a working Epic at a few trade shows .......apparently Scarlet is a little behind that in the schedule.......

By the way Buba.Jannard is a billionaire ..LOL...he may just sue you for saying his product is an urban legend.( joking )
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Old October 25th, 2010, 01:29 PM   #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Murie View Post
I think Robert might be confusing reports that RED had "abandoned" the consumer market. As Henry notes, they say they still plan to ship Scarlet, but it will be more expensive, and they are changing it's target market. They had thought they could go after the consumer DSLR market.
Michael
I think, actually, you do have it right.
The announcement was a bit ambiguious, but it does seem clear that the Scarlet, as originally conceived, has been abandoned.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 01:34 PM   #555
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I'm very interested to see the low light performance- hoping it will be at least as good as the PD with wide adapter in place.
The low light performance is O.K. with the 3.5 lens. The camera produces very little noise at high gain- that's the saving grace.
For really good low light, however, I'm thinking more along the lines of something like a f-1.4 or 1.2, 50mm prime lens. Hopefully, something like this will be offered as a new E Lens in 2011.
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