Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

[Steve Kalle]

Well, if the Alpha lenses do NOT have even aperture control, then this camera is a complete piece of junk. As I learn more about this camera, it appears to be an epic fail on Sony's part.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Everything I've read says the Alpha adapter allows for aperature control, but focus is only manual. While the NEX series share a common sensor/lens mount, and no doubt some of the "guts", there's probably LOTS of flexibility in how the firmware and user interface (widely criticized in the NEX still camera reviews I've seen) are implemented. The VG10 already has a much more extensive set of video oriented adjustments because it's a "video camera".

Just to clarify, the camera has a single slot (DOH!), meaning simultaneous stills and video are probably not going to happen. Even on the CX550V, if you are in the 24Mbps recording mode, you lose simultaneous stills (that feature still works in the 17Mbps mode).

The CX550 also has shutter and iris control so Sony MAY be waking up to providing at least SOME access to the more serious user to the controls.

A bit more disconcerting is (if in fact they did) limited clip length - there's absolutely no reason to do this in a VIDEO camera, and would kill the camera instantly for event shooters, IMO. I've used a couple Sony P&S cameras (that shoot viedeo) with the limit, and it's more like 15-17 minutes in practice (will be even less in 24Mbps mode), and having to stay on top of stopping/restarting is NOT something that you want to deal with when shooting a live event.

[Steve Mullen]

I don't get the sense Sony is aiming the VG10 at event videographers who will likely want 60i anyway. This is for the low budget filmmaker -- narrative or documentary plus a few high-end wedding photographers.

It hits the largest aspirational segment: low-cost (street price under $2000), easy to use (simple), shallow DOF plus low frame-rate for a "non-video" look, and the option to build a prime lens collection at a reasonable cost -- just like the big boys.

It is perfect Sony marketing driven design. The things like no XLRs is a nit since most shooting at this price range is done with either a highly directional on-camera mic or a 2-channel wireless receiver that plugs into a 1/8" stereo jack. No audio gain control is solved with a tone generator into one channel.

I suspect that just as Beta SP shooters scoffed at the VX1000 -- the DV to HDV shooters are now nit picking about how the next generation of cameras are "missing" capabilities. No one who has a great story to tell is going to be hindered by what's "wrong" with the VG10 any more than they were restricted by the limitations of the VX1000.

And, given Apple's popularity, it's likely filmmakers will be editing on FCE/FCP and uploading to the internet. I suspect, many will export as 720p25/720p30. This by passes the need for 24p for BD. Since Toast will burn 1080i50/1080i60 using any Mac's Superdrive -- those who need a physical media will have one.

Few, if any, will ever go to film.

[Mike Burgess]

OK, I have read the majority of the posts on this thread and my head is spinning. So, how does this camcorder compare to my FX7 and SR11? I video Trains, scenery, sailboats, and wildlife, primarily. A small %of my stuff is indoor; model railroads, family stuff, and a couple of concerts. So how would this cam do with that stuff, compared to my FX7 and SR11?

Thanks.
Mike

[Monday Isa]

Originally Posted by Robert Young

According to Sony, the A mount lenses do have camera controlled f stop with the Sony E to A adapter:

"Unleash your creativity. Designed exclusively for the α NEX-3 and NEX-5 cameras, the LA-EA1 α mount adapter lets you to mount α A-mount lenses to your E-mount camera body. Additionally, this adapter has Auto Exposure support with aperture mechanism and includes a detachable tripod attachment."
I notice that there is no direct reference to the VG10, but you wouldn't expect the situation to be any different.

Hmmmm. It could be that support for The A-mount lens through the E-mount adapter was not activated through firmware on the camera that was being tested. In which case then the comment on the lens defaulting to wide open are incorrect. Still I don't see manual control over the aperture in the quote from Sony only auto exposure.

[Monday Isa]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

.....A bit more disconcerting is (if in fact they did) limited clip length - there's absolutely no reason to do this in a VIDEO camera, and would kill the camera instantly for event shooters, IMO. I've used a couple Sony P&S cameras (that shoot viedeo) with the limit, and it's more like 15-17 minutes in practice (will be even less in 24Mbps mode), and having to stay on top of stopping/restarting is NOT something that you want to deal with when shooting a live event.

We gotta remember that with the firmware that was on the camera being tested the limit was at 30mins. There was no control over the alpha lenses through the sony adapter. Things can still change in the firmware for the final product.

[Dave Blackhurst]

Well, Mike, I think most of us got our heads spun by this pup...

The biggest noticeable difference IMO is going to be Depth of Field - I think one of the Swiss (not German methinks, though sounds similar) links has some CX550 vs VG10 samples that illustrate this well. I know I stumbled onto it a couple days ago, not sure if it was from here or another site I stumbled onto that seems to "leak" Sony related info...

It'll probably beat or match the FX7 and SR11 for low light performance. You'll have manual zoom because of the design, rather than the "rocker" of other cameras. It's got a big big sensor, and is supposed to be oriented towards video, but that's about all we can really "confirm" until it hits the shelves.

I'm looking at it as a video optimized DSLR... I've been wanting to add a DSLR to the mix for a while for certain shots, and missing the old FX7, so this is intriguing. I don't see my CX550s going anywhere anytime soon though. Whether I end up with an SLR/V or this is still up in the air... I've waited this long...

[Dave Blackhurst]

Monday -

I suspect the "30 minute" limit is variable depending on bitrate chosen - that's how it's done in other Sony still cameras. Practically speaking, it's usually a file size limit, but of course with every AVCHD camera in existence, they span the files, it would be absurd to NOT do that with this camera... unless it's a vestigial "feature" because this rose from the "still" side of the company...

They may still be working the kinks out, and I'd hope they are gathering feedback and going back and tweaking the firmware before final RTR. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few "bugs" even in the final release, that require updating - this is a pretty sudden "jump"in camera evolution.

[Robert Young]

I am rather skeptical that the VG10 will have any video recording time limit.
I have read more than one review that makes the point that- unlike the NEX still cam video- the VG10 will have no clip length limit.
Regarding camera controlled f stops with Sony A lenses- seems logical to me that if the camera can control the f stop for auto exposure, it should be able to control it for camera driven manual f stop settings as well.

We'll see what all of the details really are in good time, but this camera certainly looks like a big new step into the future for Sony video cameras, and I would be quite surprised if they made any really stupid, deal killer sort of mistakes with its features/functions.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Mike Burgess

OK, I have read the majority of the posts on this thread and my head is spinning. So, how does this camcorder compare to my FX7 and SR11? I video Trains, scenery, sailboats, and wildlife, primarily. A small %of my stuff is indoor; model railroads, family stuff, and a couple of concerts. So how would this cam do with that stuff, compared to my FX7 and SR11?

Thanks.
Mike

Good question. You could say I "wrote the book on the V1/FX7 and SR11" because I did. :)

My gut says the VG10 is like neither.

For better or worse, like HD, the powers that be in Japan have invented a new class of product just like Apple did with the iPad. Japan needs our money and Sony needs to earn a big profit -- and I don't think it's going to come from 3D. :(

This is the kind of product Samsung just can't do -- yet. Nor the Chinese. It's very sexy and jumps right into the BIG CHIP & INTERCHANGEABLE LENS craze. People will drool over having a "system" of lenses in the same way I did over having a Nikon "system" in the `60's.

The NEX is high-fashion. It's a statement of who someone wants to be.

You don't need the VG10 -- I didn't need an iPad. Yet I ordered in the first minutes it went on sale. And, I just ordered a VG10.

If I had to justify it -- I would say my experience with several DSLRs leads me to like the look they capture. The SR12 is like hi-rez DV -- so 20 Century. The V1 was "nice," but not really "HD" the the way the EX1 is.

Big hi-rez chips yield a more"art" look. If it had "grain" -- I would say it has a more 16mm look than video camcorders deliver. It's more "organic."

And, it's a $1000 cheaper than my Hi8 V5000 20-years later!

[Robert Young]

Well said, Steve. Your comments are very astute.
You could say the same thing about the NEX-5 still cam. At the end of the day, how different are your photos really going to be from a Canon G series, or other mid range small cams.
But Sony seems to have absolutely hit the "sexy" spot with it and they are flying off of the shelves all over the planet. Probably will be the same with the VG10. I ordered one too- the first day it was up on the Sony Style website.
Why? I'm not sure- I say it's to bump up my travel cam from a CX550, leave the EX at home, blah, blah... but it's more subtle than that, more like love at first sight. One look at the concept, style, size, and features and I knew I would only be satisfied to have one in my hands and run with it.
I may end up disappointed & be selling it in a year, but on the other hand...
It might be the triumph of hope over experience.
Those Sony guys, they're pretty clever.
P.S. They do a pretty good strip tease too.
Put out the glamorous web page, nice sample clips, a few specs, but nobody, nobody actually has the camera (except for Wolfgang, or whoever, hidden away in the Alps). Nobody knows for sure yet what it really is. It'll be interesting to see which veil comes off next.

[Glen Vandermolen]

I have an HPX500 and I'm thinking this little camera might make a good, inexpensive b-cam. I like the ability to get tight DoF. I can see using this camera for my TV commercial shoots, where I can get a really tight DoF on product shots. If I can figure out how to get good, clean audio into this thing, I can see doing some really nice looking interviews with the camera, with the subject in clear focus and the background properly out of focus.

I'm not a fan of the DSLR craze; I prefer my video cameras to be video cameras. But I love the DSLRs' ability to deliver outstanding DoF. If the VG10 can deliver that in a video camera body...hmmm, sounds like a winner to me. Do not underestimate the value that tight DoF can offer to the look of a video production.

I'd prefer at least a 35mbs capture rate, but what the heck - it's marketed as a comsumer cam.

Also, the 1080/60i is the preferred shooting rate. I don't know about you guys, but my clients like that format best. Seriously, if I was given a choice on which capture rate I could choose for the VG10, I'd pick 1080/60i. I feel it's the most versatile. If you want to deliver a program to, say, Discovery HD, the master has to be in 1080/60i (not that they'd accept a 24mbs capture for full acquisition).

[Steve Mullen]

"If I can figure out how to get good, clean audio into this thing, I can see doing some really nice looking interviews with the camera, with the subject in clear focus and the background properly out of focus.

Also, the 1080/60i is the preferred shooting rate. I don't know about you guys, but my clients like that format best."

Should be no problem with audio because many of today's camcorders -- even when the spec says "AGC" -- only has an audio limiter to prevent clipping. And, one definitely wants to prevent clipping with digital audio.

With today
s highly compressed web video keeping the background out of focus is a huge compression benefit as no background details need to be compressed.

Alas, no 60i shooting. But unless you pan or zoom a lot -- 30p should be fine for commercials.

[Mike Burgess]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Good question. You could say I "wrote the book on the V1/FX7 and SR11" because I did. :)

My gut says the VG10 is like neither.

For better or worse, like HD, the powers that be in Japan have invented a new class of product just like Apple did with the iPad. Japan needs our money and Sony needs to earn a big profit -- and I don't think it's going to come from 3D. :(

This is the kind of product Samsung just can't do -- yet. Nor the Chinese. It's very sexy and jumps right into the BIG CHIP & INTERCHANGEABLE LENS craze. People will drool over having a "system" of lenses in the same way I did over having a Nikon "system" in the `60's.

The NEX is high-fashion. It's a statement of who someone wants to be.

You don't need the VG10 -- I didn't need an iPad. Yet I ordered in the first minutes it went on sale. And, I just ordered a VG10.

If I had to justify it -- I would say my experience with several DSLRs leads me to like the look they capture. The SR12 is like hi-rez DV -- so 20 Century. The V1 was "nice," but not really "HD" the the way the EX1 is.

Big hi-rez chips yield a more"art" look. If it had "grain" -- I would say it has a more 16mm look than video camcorders deliver. It's more "organic."

And, it's a $1000 cheaper than my Hi8 V5000 20-years later!

Hi Steve. As you say, I probably don't need the VG10. It just seems so inviting. I suppose I can wait until next year to replace my SR11. I will not part with the FX7, I like it so much despite its limitations.
Thanks for your response.

[Mike Burgess]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Well, Mike, I think most of us got our heads spun by this pup...

The biggest noticeable difference IMO is going to be Depth of Field - I think one of the Swiss (not German methinks, though sounds similar) links has some CX550 vs VG10 samples that illustrate this well. I know I stumbled onto it a couple days ago, not sure if it was from here or another site I stumbled onto that seems to "leak" Sony related info...

It'll probably beat or match the FX7 and SR11 for low light performance. You'll have manual zoom because of the design, rather than the "rocker" of other cameras. It's got a big big sensor, and is supposed to be oriented towards video, but that's about all we can really "confirm" until it hits the shelves.

I'm looking at it as a video optimized DSLR... I've been wanting to add a DSLR to the mix for a while for certain shots, and missing the old FX7, so this is intriguing. I don't see my CX550s going anywhere anytime soon though. Whether I end up with an SLR/V or this is still up in the air... I've waited this long...

Hi Dave. Thanks for your response. This cam seems to becken me, but I am leary. I think since I do a lot of panning, that this cam may not be for me. Sigh....