NEX-VG10 + nanoFlash at DVinfo.net

Dan Keaton · January 3rd, 2011, 03:33 PM

Dear Friends,

We have a thread going in our nanoFlash forum.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...ml#post1604028

Using the nanoFlash, one can achieve 1080p24 out of a standard NEX-VG10.

The 1080p24 includes synced audio.

Please post comments on our thread in the nanoFlash forum.

This post is to only inform you that the other thread exists.

Henry Williams · January 4th, 2011, 01:34 PM

Very interesting Dan and many thanks for posting. Just responding to keep this from slipping down the list.

Dan Keaton · January 4th, 2011, 01:46 PM

Dear Henry

This is very nice as the nanoFlash greatly expands upon the NEX-VG10's capabilities.

Many have wanted to be able to record in 24p.

And High-Bit-Rate Codecs are certainly nice to have.

William Hohauser · January 4th, 2011, 04:01 PM

How is a 60i camera recording 24p in a NanoFlash?

Henry Williams · January 4th, 2011, 04:06 PM

the camera records 30 or 25p depending on region, then puts it in a 50 or 60i wrapper.

Dan Keaton · January 4th, 2011, 04:30 PM

Dear Friends,

While Sony lists the camera as being 1080i59.94, it is actually putting out 1080psf29.97.

The nanoFlash is capable of converting the 29.97 Progressive Segmented Frames to
29.97 true progressive frames per second.

And the nanoFlash is capable of Over and Under-Cranking, thus allowing one to obtain 1080p23.976.

Henry Williams · January 4th, 2011, 06:32 PM

Thanks very much Dan; this setup plus an HDMI splitter and field monitor settling one of the most oft quoted criticisms of the VG10 on the forum even without the framerate fix.. I think the cam is taking a little too much flak for not offering more pro features, which seems strange considering it's price point and consumer cam designation. It's great that we can use it for pro applications but we need to appreciate that it's a few thousand less than an af100 and cut it a bit of slack.

Dan Keaton · January 4th, 2011, 07:13 PM

Dear Friends,

When one adds a nanoFlash, you get simultaneous HD-SDI and HDMI outputs.

Thus for the NEX-VG10, you can feed the nanoFlash with HDMI in, then get HD-SDI and HDMI outputs. You can use one, both, or neither.

William Hohauser · January 4th, 2011, 07:22 PM

So the 24p is not usable with audio? Or the audio has to be recorded elsewhere? What scenario can we use this capability? It seems like a slight slow-motion effect would be obtained.

Dan Keaton · January 4th, 2011, 07:36 PM

Dear William,

Yes, the audio will be in perfect sync in you are using the nanoFlash and 24p or 25p.

Just set the Crank On, with 24/24 or 25/25.

William Hohauser · January 4th, 2011, 09:19 PM

Curious, makes the camera seem viable again to me. So "crank" effectively changes the frame rate of the camera to a true 24p if I understand correctly.

Dan Keaton · January 5th, 2011, 03:18 AM

Dear William,

The camera actually put out 29.97 Progressive Segmented Frames per second.

Then the nanoFlash discards just enough frames, in an appropriate manner, to obtain 23.976 frames per second.

This is a process where we take x number of frames then skip one, then repeat,

William Hohauser · January 5th, 2011, 07:18 AM

This is not very sophisticated. 30p down to 24p means 1 frame is removed every five frames. Without frame blending, this causes motion to appear choppy. And 30p (which the NX10 is producing) is notoriously difficult to frame blend into 24p. There is nothing in the nanoFlash spec sheets that indicates frame blending is part of the hardware. The example here is of a still life, we need to see real motion.

Dan Keaton · January 5th, 2011, 07:32 AM

Dear William,

No, we do not do frame blending.

Gerado posted a video with motion. I will go find it.

Steve Mullen · January 5th, 2011, 07:36 AM

William has it right. The time between frames for 29.97 simply can NOT be be made to be the time between frames for 23.976.

The math doesn't work. This is Sony Cineblah all over again. The software chooses the nearest in time frame to record. It will look just like 24fps with the Z1. (Please don't let me ever see this Sony demo again!)

Only if motion compensation -- a huge computational task (think hours per minute) -- is done by Twixter can this be done. And, there is in no way certain the new series of frames will look PERFECT.

If you want 24p, I don't know why folks ignore the real solution: Twixter. It never gets mentioned, yet for several years it keeps doing the job.

Now could 25 be converted to 24 -- I doubt by the nano.

January 3rd, 2011, 03:33 PM	#1
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	NEX-VG10 + nanoFlash Dear Friends, We have a thread going in our nanoFlash forum. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...ml#post1604028 Using the nanoFlash, one can achieve 1080p24 out of a standard NEX-VG10. The 1080p24 includes synced audio. Please post comments on our thread in the nanoFlash forum. This post is to only inform you that the other thread exists. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 4th, 2011, 01:46 PM	#3
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Henry This is very nice as the nanoFlash greatly expands upon the NEX-VG10's capabilities. Many have wanted to be able to record in 24p. And High-Bit-Rate Codecs are certainly nice to have. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 4th, 2011, 04:01 PM	#4
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	How is a 60i camera recording 24p in a NanoFlash? __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

January 4th, 2011, 04:30 PM	#6
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Friends, While Sony lists the camera as being 1080i59.94, it is actually putting out 1080psf29.97. The nanoFlash is capable of converting the 29.97 Progressive Segmented Frames to 29.97 true progressive frames per second. And the nanoFlash is capable of Over and Under-Cranking, thus allowing one to obtain 1080p23.976. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 4th, 2011, 07:13 PM	#8
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Friends, When one adds a nanoFlash, you get simultaneous HD-SDI and HDMI outputs. Thus for the NEX-VG10, you can feed the nanoFlash with HDMI in, then get HD-SDI and HDMI outputs. You can use one, both, or neither. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 4th, 2011, 01:34 PM	#2
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	Very interesting Dan and many thanks for posting. Just responding to keep this from slipping down the list.

January 4th, 2011, 04:06 PM	#5
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	the camera records 30 or 25p depending on region, then puts it in a 50 or 60i wrapper.

January 4th, 2011, 06:32 PM	#7
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	Thanks very much Dan; this setup plus an HDMI splitter and field monitor settling one of the most oft quoted criticisms of the VG10 on the forum even without the framerate fix.. I think the cam is taking a little too much flak for not offering more pro features, which seems strange considering it's price point and consumer cam designation. It's great that we can use it for pro applications but we need to appreciate that it's a few thousand less than an af100 and cut it a bit of slack.

January 4th, 2011, 07:22 PM	#9
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	So the 24p is not usable with audio? Or the audio has to be recorded elsewhere? What scenario can we use this capability? It seems like a slight slow-motion effect would be obtained. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

January 4th, 2011, 07:36 PM	#10
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear William, Yes, the audio will be in perfect sync in you are using the nanoFlash and 24p or 25p. Just set the Crank On, with 24/24 or 25/25. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 4th, 2011, 09:19 PM	#11
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	Curious, makes the camera seem viable again to me. So "crank" effectively changes the frame rate of the camera to a true 24p if I understand correctly. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

January 5th, 2011, 03:18 AM	#12
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear William, The camera actually put out 29.97 Progressive Segmented Frames per second. Then the nanoFlash discards just enough frames, in an appropriate manner, to obtain 23.976 frames per second. This is a process where we take x number of frames then skip one, then repeat, __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia Last edited by Dan Keaton; January 5th, 2011 at 07:33 AM.

January 5th, 2011, 07:18 AM	#13
William Hohauser Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 2,650	This is not very sophisticated. 30p down to 24p means 1 frame is removed every five frames. Without frame blending, this causes motion to appear choppy. And 30p (which the NX10 is producing) is notoriously difficult to frame blend into 24p. There is nothing in the nanoFlash spec sheets that indicates frame blending is part of the hardware. The example here is of a still life, we need to see real motion. __________________ William Hohauser - New York City Producer/Edit/Camera/Animation

January 5th, 2011, 07:32 AM	#14
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear William, No, we do not do frame blending. Gerado posted a video with motion. I will go find it. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 5th, 2011, 07:36 AM	#15
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	William has it right. The time between frames for 29.97 simply can NOT be be made to be the time between frames for 23.976. The math doesn't work. This is Sony Cineblah all over again. The software chooses the nearest in time frame to record. It will look just like 24fps with the Z1. (Please don't let me ever see this Sony demo again!) Only if motion compensation -- a huge computational task (think hours per minute) -- is done by Twixter can this be done. And, there is in no way certain the new series of frames will look PERFECT. If you want 24p, I don't know why folks ignore the real solution: Twixter. It never gets mentioned, yet for several years it keeps doing the job. Now could 25 be converted to 24 -- I doubt by the nano. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c