Why no Focus Assist?

Tom Hardwick · January 20th, 2011, 10:58 AM

Your camera gets hot in Atlanta Jonathan? My brother Richard writes about his new Sony Alpha 55 in which I'd read that the vibrating chip (Sony's image stabilisation method) only allows for 9 minutes of stabilised shooting:

'My camera certainly did get hot in India, shutting down regularly when using HD video shooting....so hot that 9 minutes sounds like a big bad LIE to me....it was about 30 seconds if the "hot" sign had gone out from the LCD displays (it shows in the viewfinder and the rear screen) but the thing was all-too-eager to get heated up again seconds later. So in practical situations, useless, huh? But then I only use the video for fun'.

tom.

Glen Vandermolen · January 20th, 2011, 11:53 AM

On a recent shoot with a 7D, here in sunny Florida, the camera shut down numerous times. I am not crazy about that at all. I'd pay extra to get a video camera body if it means no heat shut-downs in the middle of a production.

Cliff Totten · January 20th, 2011, 04:32 PM

The NEX5 was "designed" to get hot and shut down.

I mean,...it was designed not to stay cool for long periods of time,...that's more accurate.

Sony does not "want" you shooting long clips or non stop events. You gotta pay more for that expectation today.

For that price and quality level?,..yoiu get short clips ONLY. (market division protection)

CT

Steve Mullen · January 20th, 2011, 04:49 PM

Heat shutdowns are a function of the technology used. Moving the sensor takes lots of continuous energy which means heat. So the A55 is not a good choice, period.

Electronic stabilization adds no heat. In-lens optical stabilization creates heat, but it makes no difference if the lens is attached to a camera or camcorder. This is what all NEX cameras use.

Chip read out speed and the number of pixels read out in video mode make a huge difference. As should chip size. It's interesting that Sony is driving it's 14MP and 16MP chips no higher than 30p. But chip size doesn't seem to work as one would think with both Sony and Panasonic driving 1/2" chips at 60p. So maybe a smaller chip gets hotter but the size of the heat sink is the real issue. The size of the camera then would make a difference -- not it's shape.

But it all comes down to money spent for video quality.I can't image shooting a single take longer than a few minutes. A roll of 16mm film lasted about the same amount of time! Maybe one needs to rethink the current practice of shooting hundreds hours simply because it now seems to cost nothing.

Steve Mullen · January 20th, 2011, 05:02 PM

The kit lens on the vg10 is not better, it is longer. It is also much heavier which throws the tiny body out of balance. It's manual zoom is also a PITA to use. However, if you use it on a tripod the lens is great.

If you need to hand hold, then the 18200 is far better on the NEX 5 because you hold the lens in the palm of your left hand. The tiny NEX body doesn't upset the balance. Moreover, if you are really going to use almost 400mm of tele, you really want focus assist! Your DOF will be only a few inches deep!

The 1855 is far nicer to use on the vg10 because it balances better. But, it is a bit short. It should be 16-100.

Les Wilson · January 20th, 2011, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

On a recent shoot with a 7D, here in sunny Florida, the camera shut down numerous times. I am not crazy about that at all. I'd pay extra to get a video camera body if it means no heat shut-downs in the middle of a production.

It seems, from what I've read, GH2 body doesn't overheat nor does it stop recording at 4GB. It has 24p, focus assist, zebras and 1:1 crop mode. It does not have XLR input or a nice handle. The GH2 body is only $899 so you may not be able "pay extra". :-)

Glen Vandermolen · January 20th, 2011, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

It seems, from what I've read, GH2 body doesn't overheat nor does it stop recording at 4GB. It has 24p, focus assist, zebras and 1:1 crop mode. It does not have XLR input or a nice handle. The GH2 body is only $899 so you may not be able "pay extra". :-)

I've also heard the GH1/GH2 suffer less moire and aliasing issues compared to other DSLRs.
Hmm...could be a good alternative.

Steve Mullen · January 20th, 2011, 11:32 PM

The GH2 is about 2X more than the NEX 5 and offers a great deal more. I expect Sony to close the gap with the NEX 7.

What I'm talking about is the camcorder divisions keeping their products several steps behind their camera divisions. Or, making you pay X times more to get the same features. Its not like the vg10 offers built in ND filters! It really is les than a NEX 5 but in a very nice body.

This presents a real problem when one can buy a Hollywood accepted camera for less than a consumer camcorder. (that's not quite correct, but it isn't completely invalid.)

Of course, if the Sony 770 can deliver great results for under $1500, then ma ybs the big chip camcorder will be just a phase.

Tom Hardwick · January 21st, 2011, 03:07 AM

This heat build-up is even affecting little handycams now. The Panasonic TM700 runs so hot that that it's permanently fan cooled, and the inbuilt mic overlays all the audio with a miss-mash of rumble that's simply nasty. On headphones it’s always there; on so-so speakers it takes a quiet room to show the fault. I attached a small Sony mic to the supplied shoe bracket, plugged it in to override the internal mics and this improved things a lot.

tom.

Glen Vandermolen · January 21st, 2011, 08:37 AM

I don't think large sensor cameras are a "phase." I think they're going to be the future of video technology - at least at the professional level. The AF100, F3, Alexa, Epic and the pending NXCAM are generating tons of excitement.
For consumers, I don't think there'll be many cameras that offer lens interchangablility, except for DSLRs. I can't see the VG10 as a home video camera, despite its consumer ranking. It's bad enough to watch home videos with power zooms. Imagine consumers struggling with a manual zoom and shallow depth of field? Ugh.

While I was in the camera store playing with the VG10, a couple walked up to me and started asking a lot of questions about it. Why the big lens? Can I put that lens on my present Handicam? Where's the zoom control? I patiently explained its features, as they had no idea what a large sensor camera was. And yet, they bought it on the spot! (I should have gotten a commission for the sale.) I would hate to see the video they shoot with it.

Henry Williams · January 21st, 2011, 08:39 AM

Steve, my understanding was that the NEX-5 did not offer full manual control over exposure etc. when shooting video. Surely that rules it out for anything other than amateur use?

Jonathan W. Hickman · January 21st, 2011, 09:39 AM

I'm sitting waiting on my wife and typing this on my Pm pre so it might have some typos.

Heat issues with the T2i have presented some problems with interview work and my TV show when shooting on the street in Atlanta. And if you're self shooting, it is always on my mind because montior recording is not possible without a montior. The video is great except moire problems with certain types of clothes.

Audio has been great since I got the Beachtek for the camera.

But I've really liked using the 50U for video blogging. Check out today's Film Fix at DailyFilmFix.com and it looks fine. Audio for the F0U is done using my Zoom synced with Plural Eyes.

Here's the bottom line though. On the street and with interviews, I like have shallow DOF. I can blur out folks walking around me and my co-host very well. But concerns over heat shutdowns and no articulating screen makes me want to sell the DSLR and move to the VG10. Have there been heat issues on the VG10?

And just so people understand. I shot a documentary feature a couple years ago on a DVX100 and ran that camera for one interview with a famous politician for 2 days. Long shoot times are pretty comon in what I do.

Henry Williams · January 21st, 2011, 10:43 AM

I film a lot of interviews/talks/gigs using the VG10. Regularly do 60-90 minute continuous records and haven't had any problems with overheating so far.

Steve Mullen · January 21st, 2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Williams

Steve, my understanding was that the NEX-5 did not offer full manual control over exposure etc. when shooting video. Surely that rules it out for anything other than amateur use?

That changed with the V3 firmware.

With the NEX 5 and VG10 you first set the aperture you need for DOF. You are not setting exposure at this point! You are setting the DOF you want. With these cameras you first think of DOF. Do you need inches or feet. You use a DOF app on your iPhone or iPad.

In bright light, you see the current shutter speed. Next count the stops of light reduction needed to get to 1/40th to 1/80th. Than you must add that density ND filter.

In dim light, , you see the current shutter speed. Next, you add light to get the desired shutter speed.

If you don't want to count and want to control gain, use a lightmeter. This makes it easy to decide how many stops of light must be added.

In all cases, Exposure Compensation is set as needed. In bright light, you set to -0.3 to -0.7 stops.

With the NEX 5, you lock exposure if you want when you shoot. With the VG10, if you want exposure locked, you need to start with Manual mode! You can't lock it just before shooting.

Bottom-line, even if you have a "camcorder" shape, at every stage you are working as a still photographer or filmmaker. If you don't want, or don't know how, then these are not for you.

Jonathan W. Hickman · January 22nd, 2011, 04:00 PM

Henry, can you address focus issues with interviews?

I shoot a lot of interviews with my T2i and I constantly use the focus assist on that camera (enhanced focus or whatever its called). I was never one for peaking, although I've used it here and there.

As an aside, I shot a commercial one time for a Mexican restaurant and the talent did not get there until something like 10 or 11 at night. We shot the commercial until probably 1am (it was a 30 second local spot) and when I got the footage into FCP, most of it was slightly out of focus. I saved the footage by using some filters to achieve a unique look, but ever since that time, I've been nuts about getting focus. Of course, I'm not perfect and stuff happens.

So, please tell me what lenses you're using with the VG10, Henry, and how you're getting and maintaining focus. And if you say, "oh, I just use autofocus," I'll have to leap off a tall bridge.

January 20th, 2011, 04:49 PM	#19
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Heat shutdowns are a function of the technology used. Moving the sensor takes lots of continuous energy which means heat. So the A55 is not a good choice, period. Electronic stabilization adds no heat. In-lens optical stabilization creates heat, but it makes no difference if the lens is attached to a camera or camcorder. This is what all NEX cameras use. Chip read out speed and the number of pixels read out in video mode make a huge difference. As should chip size. It's interesting that Sony is driving it's 14MP and 16MP chips no higher than 30p. But chip size doesn't seem to work as one would think with both Sony and Panasonic driving 1/2" chips at 60p. So maybe a smaller chip gets hotter but the size of the heat sink is the real issue. The size of the camera then would make a difference -- not it's shape. But it all comes down to money spent for video quality.I can't image shooting a single take longer than a few minutes. A roll of 16mm film lasted about the same amount of time! Maybe one needs to rethink the current practice of shooting hundreds hours simply because it now seems to cost nothing. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

January 20th, 2011, 05:02 PM	#20
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	The kit lens on the vg10 is not better, it is longer. It is also much heavier which throws the tiny body out of balance. It's manual zoom is also a PITA to use. However, if you use it on a tripod the lens is great. If you need to hand hold, then the 18200 is far better on the NEX 5 because you hold the lens in the palm of your left hand. The tiny NEX body doesn't upset the balance. Moreover, if you are really going to use almost 400mm of tele, you really want focus assist! Your DOF will be only a few inches deep! The 1855 is far nicer to use on the vg10 because it balances better. But, it is a bit short. It should be 16-100. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

January 20th, 2011, 11:32 PM	#23
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	The GH2 is about 2X more than the NEX 5 and offers a great deal more. I expect Sony to close the gap with the NEX 7. What I'm talking about is the camcorder divisions keeping their products several steps behind their camera divisions. Or, making you pay X times more to get the same features. Its not like the vg10 offers built in ND filters! It really is les than a NEX 5 but in a very nice body. This presents a real problem when one can buy a Hollywood accepted camera for less than a consumer camcorder. (that's not quite correct, but it isn't completely invalid.) Of course, if the Sony 770 can deliver great results for under $1500, then ma ybs the big chip camcorder will be just a phase. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

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January 20th, 2011, 10:58 AM	#16
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Your camera gets hot in Atlanta Jonathan? My brother Richard writes about his new Sony Alpha 55 in which I'd read that the vibrating chip (Sony's image stabilisation method) only allows for 9 minutes of stabilised shooting: 'My camera certainly did get hot in India, shutting down regularly when using HD video shooting....so hot that 9 minutes sounds like a big bad LIE to me....it was about 30 seconds if the "hot" sign had gone out from the LCD displays (it shows in the viewfinder and the rear screen) but the thing was all-too-eager to get heated up again seconds later. So in practical situations, useless, huh? But then I only use the video for fun'. tom.

January 20th, 2011, 11:53 AM	#17
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	On a recent shoot with a 7D, here in sunny Florida, the camera shut down numerous times. I am not crazy about that at all. I'd pay extra to get a video camera body if it means no heat shut-downs in the middle of a production.

January 20th, 2011, 04:32 PM	#18
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	The NEX5 was "designed" to get hot and shut down. I mean,...it was designed not to stay cool for long periods of time,...that's more accurate. Sony does not "want" you shooting long clips or non stop events. You gotta pay more for that expectation today. For that price and quality level?,..yoiu get short clips ONLY. (market division protection) CT

January 21st, 2011, 03:07 AM	#24
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	This heat build-up is even affecting little handycams now. The Panasonic TM700 runs so hot that that it's permanently fan cooled, and the inbuilt mic overlays all the audio with a miss-mash of rumble that's simply nasty. On headphones it’s always there; on so-so speakers it takes a quiet room to show the fault. I attached a small Sony mic to the supplied shoe bracket, plugged it in to override the internal mics and this improved things a lot. tom.

January 21st, 2011, 08:37 AM	#25
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	I don't think large sensor cameras are a "phase." I think they're going to be the future of video technology - at least at the professional level. The AF100, F3, Alexa, Epic and the pending NXCAM are generating tons of excitement. For consumers, I don't think there'll be many cameras that offer lens interchangablility, except for DSLRs. I can't see the VG10 as a home video camera, despite its consumer ranking. It's bad enough to watch home videos with power zooms. Imagine consumers struggling with a manual zoom and shallow depth of field? Ugh. While I was in the camera store playing with the VG10, a couple walked up to me and started asking a lot of questions about it. Why the big lens? Can I put that lens on my present Handicam? Where's the zoom control? I patiently explained its features, as they had no idea what a large sensor camera was. And yet, they bought it on the spot! (I should have gotten a commission for the sale.) I would hate to see the video they shoot with it.

January 21st, 2011, 08:39 AM	#26
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	Steve, my understanding was that the NEX-5 did not offer full manual control over exposure etc. when shooting video. Surely that rules it out for anything other than amateur use?

January 21st, 2011, 09:39 AM	#27
Jonathan W. Hickman Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: United States Posts: 81	I'm sitting waiting on my wife and typing this on my Pm pre so it might have some typos. Heat issues with the T2i have presented some problems with interview work and my TV show when shooting on the street in Atlanta. And if you're self shooting, it is always on my mind because montior recording is not possible without a montior. The video is great except moire problems with certain types of clothes. Audio has been great since I got the Beachtek for the camera. But I've really liked using the 50U for video blogging. Check out today's Film Fix at DailyFilmFix.com and it looks fine. Audio for the F0U is done using my Zoom synced with Plural Eyes. Here's the bottom line though. On the street and with interviews, I like have shallow DOF. I can blur out folks walking around me and my co-host very well. But concerns over heat shutdowns and no articulating screen makes me want to sell the DSLR and move to the VG10. Have there been heat issues on the VG10? And just so people understand. I shot a documentary feature a couple years ago on a DVX100 and ran that camera for one interview with a famous politician for 2 days. Long shoot times are pretty comon in what I do.

January 21st, 2011, 10:43 AM	#28
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	I film a lot of interviews/talks/gigs using the VG10. Regularly do 60-90 minute continuous records and haven't had any problems with overheating so far.

January 22nd, 2011, 04:00 PM	#30
Jonathan W. Hickman Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: United States Posts: 81	Henry, can you address focus issues with interviews? I shoot a lot of interviews with my T2i and I constantly use the focus assist on that camera (enhanced focus or whatever its called). I was never one for peaking, although I've used it here and there. As an aside, I shot a commercial one time for a Mexican restaurant and the talent did not get there until something like 10 or 11 at night. We shot the commercial until probably 1am (it was a 30 second local spot) and when I got the footage into FCP, most of it was slightly out of focus. I saved the footage by using some filters to achieve a unique look, but ever since that time, I've been nuts about getting focus. Of course, I'm not perfect and stuff happens. So, please tell me what lenses you're using with the VG10, Henry, and how you're getting and maintaining focus. And if you say, "oh, I just use autofocus," I'll have to leap off a tall bridge.