Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems > Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900

Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900
Interchangeable lens AVCHD camcorders using E-Mount lenses.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 6th, 2011, 04:08 PM   #1
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100

No, Sony has not introduced a new NEX!

Since my NEX eBook is now selling -- thank you to those from here that have already bought it -- I've been reading about other video cameras. Obviously I looked at the Panasonic GH2. But in doing so I encountered information on their FZ100 SuperZoom. Amazingly, it offers all the same manual controls, other than manual ISO, as does the VG10! So one can set both shutter speed and aperture.

Equally amazing B&H had one used for $299. So I ordered it and it's arrived. I'm going to run a series of experiments to see just how different a "small" CMOS sensor is from a "big" CMOS sensor. What's interesting is both chips have 14MP. I also want to see if there are ways to get a shallow DOF from a small chip.

The FZ100 can shoot both real 1080i60 and real 720p60. So how much better is motion captured than with a NEX? And, what RANGE of shutter speeds can be used?

Interestingly, like most camcorders the FZ100 and the NEX cameras can both add up to 18dB gain. So what does this mean in real world situations when the sensors are so different in size?

I fully expect the Sony to blow the Panasonic away it terms of pure image quality, but maybe not as much as I expect. Plus having a power zoom would be really nice as well as a mic jack. Obviously there's no way to have interchangeable lenses, but I've seen several posts from NEX owners who want Sony to make a NEX with a fixed 16mm to 160mm lens.

Anyway, I need a fun project while we wait for NAB. As I learn things I'll post them. Let me know what questions you have.

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...00000000005702
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 04:42 PM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 4,866
Re: Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100

Looks pretty similar to the upcoming Sony HX100 - which will have 1080 60p...

My take, having owned the HX1, now several years "old", is that you won't get the same performance as a "big chip", but it certainly competes with a midrange camcorder fairly well. The HX1 only did 1080 30p, so I found the footage choppy, if "usable". I'm expecting the HX100 to be pretty good, with several model years in between it and the HX1. For the "average" family user that wants a bit more than a small P&S, not a bad deal, with video!

Then again, ALL the Sony P&S top of the line cameras have 1080 60p this year, although with minimal manual controls. The challenge is that a pocket camera will be WITH you when there's something interesting to shoot, a big camera probably not so much... I like my DSC TX9 quite a lot, although it's limited in zoom range, it takes pretty decent video and stills... and it's easy to stick in a pocket.
Dave Blackhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 05:13 AM   #3
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100

I've looked at everything on the coming Sony and can't find any certain detail on manual video controls.

I'm also not sure where Sony is on 1080p60. I think Sony wants their AVCHD to only support what can be burned to BD, I assume this why Panasonic's AVCHD Lite must carry 720p30 in 720p60. And, Panasonic's 1080p60 is not called AVCHD. It is H.264/AVC and can't be copied to BD.

But now it seems Sony is calling their 1080p60 AVCHD.

Does this mean they have relaxed the rule on BD compatability? Does it mean Sony knows it is going to have BD support 1080p60? (Is it possible their BD players already do?) Or, is it simply a marketing error?

Until the hardware makers get this all in order, we can't expect that software will import 1080p60 AVCHD. I'm not sure all H.264/AVC importing is designed for 1080p60.

Lastly, it tales a powerful computer to native edit 1080p60. Even when converted to AIC, it's a big load. And, does ProRes and DNxHD even support 1080p60?

So, for now, I'm inclined to stay with two formats that can be burned to BD: 1080i60 (including 1080i60/24PsF) and 720p60.

Although Toast I think will not burn 720p60 and converts it to 1080i60. Perhaps Sony's PMB utility will burn 720p60 even if they don't make AVCHD camcorders that support it. I need to check my PC.

In fact, Toast will not burn 1080p24 which is supported!

Please correct me if I/m wrong!
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

Last edited by Steve Mullen; March 7th, 2011 at 03:40 PM.
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 10:37 AM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 4,866
Re: Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100

They say in the manual for the CX700 (which has 1080 60p and 24p as part of the AVCHD recording options) I just reviewed that it won't burn to a BR, BUT can be played back from either the camera or a file... It's possible that they could add it to the BR spec, the BR players I just got update themselves online, and keep adding features...

It'll probably be a bit mixed on support initially, as with every format upgrade. PMB will support it natively, I'd expect Vegas will as well, and as with all format changes, it's likely to be clunky and perhaps a bit slow to work with at first. That's life on the bleeding edge.

Of course computer horsepower continues to get beefier, and things come along to use it all up and more!
Dave Blackhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 03:52 PM   #5
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100

Maybe it's Panasonic that is being strict. That would explain why they created AVCHD LITE and why they won't call 1080p60 AVCHD.

I wonder if Sony is more liberal because they have the PS3. Perhaps it can play 1080p60 AVCHD files from cards.

I'm also wondering if one exported a 1080 p60 file using the X264 codec -- and it were set to generate Level 4.2 HIGH, could one skip Toast and use ImageBurn to make an AVCHD disc that the PS3 would play?

For those shooting 720p60, X264 might make a file Toast would not convert to 1080i60. Another experiment to perform.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #6
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 4,866
Re: Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100

My guess is ANY method that worked to play from a BR would be by luck or a kludge at this point.

I'll be that there are some meetings taking place to open up the "standard" in an agreeable way, and we'll see an "announcement" about new extensions to the BR and AVCHD specs to allow for any "new" formats to be edited/rendered/played.

IIRC 60p is 24 Mbps data rate, and BR tops out at 25? SO in theory it should fall within the physical capabilities of the media and the hardware.
Dave Blackhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 06:51 PM   #7
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Really cheap VG10 -- the FZ100

1) to correct something I claimed about the FZ100. It does let you set ISO video mode ISO to 100 (6db), 200 (12db), and 800 (18db). Very nice! Just like the VG10.

2) the full Manual works as expected, and it confirmed something I read. In video mode the aperture is allowed to go down to f/11 which will help -- unless it is too soft -- in bright light. In fact, when shooting p60 at 1/125th one almost might not need an ND filter.

3) in shutter priority mode, one does NOT see the aperture read-out. However, with a vary-ND filter one should be able to dial greater filter density until you actually see the image go darker (You then know the aperture is fully open) and then the dial density back a bit. You will now have minimum DOF.

4) no histogram when shooting video! This hurts.

I can't do much more testing because I broke my glasses and it's going to be another week.

Now about BD. The maximum h.264 video data rate is 40Mbps. JVC is going to use 36Mbps for their 1080p60. I think I'm right to say that if thebspec allows 40, the frame size and frame rate do not matter to the disc -- other than duration. The block is the electronics. Can it assemble anything more than p24 or 60i?

I'd guess yes because 2:3 pulldown can be added to 24p recordings to send 1080p60 to your HDTV.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13th, 2011, 08:43 PM   #8
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Really cheap VG10 -- the Panasonic FZ100

More AVCHD updates:

1) The Panasonic USA website claims the FZ100 shoots AVCHD Lite. It is wring since the Japan sites and my tests show AVCHD.

2) Panasonic photo/video cameras (not camcorders) record AVCHD and AVCHD Lite with only 1- not 2-reference frames and CAVLC (not CABAC) which means they record motion less well than camcorder AVCHD that uses 2-reference frames and CABAC. (see below)

3) the new NXCAM that shoots p50/p60 does NOT use AVCHD when it does so. So there has been no change to the AVCHD specification as I hoped. I know Europe wants to adopt 1080p50 and Sony studio cameras already shoot this format, and now consumer and prosumer cameras do too, so how is p50 video -- sports and concerts -- going to be distributed on BD?


============ from my eBook =======

High Profile (HP) offers all the capabilities of Main Profile plus an optional function that can greatly improve codec efficiency—the ability to dynamically switch between 4x4 and 8x8 sub-macroblocks during compression. Image areas with high detail are compressed using 4x4 pixel blocks while areas with low detail are compressed using 8x8 pixel blocks. The latter generates less data; therefore, more bandwidth is available for data from areas with fine detail.

A High Profile encoder can use several Levels. Level 4.0 supports data rates up to 20Mbps. Level 4.1 and 4.2 support data rates up to 50Mbps. Blu-ray employs Level 4.1 using a video data rate of up 40Mbps. Level 4.2 supports a data rate of up to 50Mbps for 1080p50 and 1080p60.

Panasonic’s AVCHD Lite format uses Level 4.0, without CABAC, for 720p50/720p60 recording at up to 17Mbps. Only a single reference frame is used. Although AVCHD Lite records 50 or 60 frames per second, each captured frame (25fps or 30fps) is simply recorded twice. (720p50/720p60 recording is used only to be compatible with for Blu-ray.)

There are differences between AVCHD implementations. When CAVLC coding rather than CABAC is used, motion is not handled well. Likewise, motion is not handled well when only 1- rather than 2-reference frames are employed.

When interlaced video is encoded, both fields are compressed together. When there is motion, these fields are very different so encoding efficiency is reduced. Therefore, when a low efficiency encoder encodes interlaced video, fine detail in motion will turn to “mud.” (Many of you remember how poorly the GH1 performed at 1080p but how much better it did with 720p60/)

Likely an AVCHD Lite encoder is being used for 1080i50/1080i60 and true 720p50/720p60. Thus, even though the recording is called AVCHD it has AVCHD Lite quality. Encoders used in photo/video cameras generate these less efficient types of AVCHD.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems > Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:46 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network