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Old August 31st, 2011, 03:34 AM   #31
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

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Originally Posted by John Vincent View Post
Remember that many big networks still only broadcast in 720 - and have no plans on upgrading soon.

Certainly no internet provider wants to see 4K tv shows or movies, I can promise you that. 4K will be nice, but not at the expense of that creamy DOF most DPs/directors long for. Bottom line is that no TV stations require 4K - or even 2K - masters, and likely won't for years to come. The internet certainly doesn't need that sort of resolution, and in 10 years that's where many people will be watching all of their media content.
Several issues here:

1) Networks choose 720p60 because the clarity of motion is twice that of 1080i60. It is BETTER for sports. The same equipment can send 1080i60. It's not that 1080i60 is a step up.

2) The point of you shooting 4K2K has NOTHING to do with distribution -- although it will in the future. The point is the capture 8MP at 24 to 60fps/second. It's very close to shooting 35mm still pictures (about 12MP pixels). One wants those pixels so one can manipulate video images just like one manipulates stills in Photoshop.

One can pan-and-scan a 2MP window in 8MP. Every photographer routinely crops photos. Having that capability in video is a huge post advantage.

A 2MP window downscaled from 8MP is a super-sampling -- so one gets nearer film resolution on FullHD.

3) Just as the AVCHD spec has been upgraded to p60, the BD spec will soon be upgraded to 4K2K. Do you really think Japan is going to sell 4K2K HDTVs in 2012 without BD support?

4) You seem to think that 1080i60 delivered by the internet IS the future. No way!

That would mean folks would not need to buy new HDTVs. That would mean $50 BD players. Japan, Korea, China can't allow this to happen. YOU WILL BUY new HDTVs every few years just like you bought new TVs. My first TV was a 12-inch. My last was 36-inches. My first HDTV was 27-inch and my current are 50- and 60-inches. That's the size one really needs for HD. (See THX and SMPTE specs.)

Having used a projector for a while, I'm looking forward to a thin panel 72-inch. But 1920x1080 are too few pixels for really big wall-sized HDTVs. That's why Japan is prototyping 8K4K that the BBC is trying out for the Olyimpics.

4K2K is simply the next step. (That happens to the size used for DI in movie production.)

5) There's no way the entire optical disc industry is going to give media distribution to the internet. 3D is a short-term place-holder. The goal is IMAX presentations in your home. This let's movies (many from Sony) come to you with a quality that HDTV and the internet cannot match. Since broadcast TV is doomed, that means to compete there WILL be 4K2K distribution paths created. Do you really think Time Warner and DirecTV are going to let you get your highest quality programming from YouTube and NetFlix? Likewise, one can expect that 4K2K will be delivered by the net.

6) Follow the money -- 4K2K BD and HDTVs are a perfect feature to put Asian products ahead of low-cost internet delivery (Apple and Google). Do you really think Sony plans to let "MP3" quality internet 1920x1080 video be our future? Why would folks spend another $4000 in the next few years for a new HDTV and BD player?

7) The point of Sony's 16Mp and 24MP chips is high resolution with high sensitivity. That requires a big chip size. The fact that they offer the positive side effect (shallow DOF) for those who want to shoot "movies" is a nice source of extra dollars while they get ready to push 4K2K.

Japan, Korea, China are not interested in the tiny Indie market. I believe that's why Sony tested the water with the VG10. The reaction let them know they could make money. But, the goal of all the Asian companies is to force a complete replacement of HDTV and BD with 4K2K gear in the next 5 years and then the replacement of all this with Super Hi-Vision in the next 5 years.

I see JVC's 4K2K consumer camera exactly as I did their HD1. It was a way for consumers to shoot home movies for their new HDTVs. But, just as video producers leaped from DV to HDV -- often before they even owned an HDTV -- they will buy a 4K2K prosumer cameras. The vast majority of video shooters do not care about and cannot master shallow DOF. (I get feedback from those who buy a VG10 and then buy my eBook. So many simply don't bother to follow my instructions because when they get in the field they fall back to shooting like they always have. It's the photographers who are willing to "bother.")

PS: I still believe the FS100 chip's specs were not fully revealed by Sony because it will be used for a 4K2K camera. From day one I have thought the FS100 will share the same fate as the VG10. A production run for Sony's 4K2K camera.
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Old August 31st, 2011, 11:02 AM   #32
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

Steve - I respect you and have read many of your posts. But I do think your oversimplifying things....

1. You said, " Networks choose 720p60 because the clarity of motion is twice that of 1080i60. It is BETTER for sports. The same equipment can send 1080i60. It's not that 1080i60 is a step up."

That's certainly one view, but certainly not a universal one. There is a nice debate on this very forum about that subject:

difference between 720p and 1080i?

2. What resolution you shoot at does have a lot to do with distribution - One, in will your video be accepted by a network? Two, assuming yes, if you shoot in a low rez format, will it have to be uprezed (a step that 720p footage is often forced by distributors to do). If you shoot in 4K, then obviously downrezzing will have to be done.

Point is, unless you're shooting at the exact resolution and color space required by the end distributor, it matters. I do agree with your basic thrust however - more resolution is by in large better for those who are acquiring the raw footage.

3. "Do you really think Japan is going to sell 4K2K HDTVs in 2012 without BD support?"

I guess I was pointing out that just because a new product or method exists, it does not mean it will be accepted by the public at large, using 3D as but one example. And chance of acceptance would seem to be lower if not major network is using 4K - which you'd think would be 10 years or more given their large output of cash to achieve 720/1080.

4. "You seem to think that 1080i60 delivered by the internet IS the future. No way!"

Who knows what the internet's eventual delivery system will be? I certainly don't. But until better compression schemes are developed, the higher the resolution/file size is, the more bandwidth it will take up (and all of the associated problems that come with it). Many internet providers are already capping bandwidth, so it's certainly an issue right now, today.

If you know you're product is aimed at the net as it exists in 2011, 4K acquisition/resolution is not going to be a top priority.

5. While I don't think that disk media will die anytime soon, it has certainly been badly wounded. A simple Google search will reveal scores of articles on how the internet is killing the DVD, putting video stores out of business, and even possibly killing porn as a viable business model.

And OTA broadcasting is far from dead - in fact, with the bad economy it's made a rather nice comeback:
Antennas Direct | Rabbit Ears are Making a Comeback for 2011

6. You make my point for me - I agree, not many people are going to drop any more money on better tech right now.

7. "Japan, Korea, China are not interested in the tiny Indie market."

Then why would Sony, Panny, JVC, and Canon all make dozens of products aimed directly at that market? Why have a video feature at all on high end still cameras? Why the existence of the VG10/20, FS100, F100, AF100, entire JVC GYU lineup, Sony XL series, et al? Why do these companies take out full page ads aimed directly at indie film makers for those products in no interest?

Not to mention the hundreds of small companies that have sprung up to provide everything from matteboxes to lenses (Samyang a really example). What about the Chinese telescope company that just showed off their new 2K camera (KineRAW-S35)?

Suffice it to say that I totally disagree with your above statement.

"I still believe the FS100 chip's specs were not fully revealed by Sony because it will be used for a 4K2K camera. From day one I have thought the FS100 will share the same fate as the VG10. A production run for Sony's 4K2K camera."

Now that's interesting... and I tend to agree with you - the FS100 is a strange bird.
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Old August 31st, 2011, 06:00 PM   #33
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

Many good points, but:

1) The ONLY networks that have gone 720p60 are sports networks (the many ESPN channels), FOX, and ABC. These networks chose motion resolution over spatial resolution. Stations like 720p60 because the needed bandwidth leaves room for one or two SD feeds. And, since there has been no 1080p60 -- 720p60 was the ONLY way to get away from interlace without the motion judder of 1080p24.

2) Because Europe distributes by H.264 they can move directly to 1080p50. Sony has been asking Europe to WAIT for 1080p50 and not go with 720p50 -- and I don't think any have gone with 720p50.

3) Over the air is doomed because the govt is auctioning-off the valuable spectrum to mobil operators. The govt is proposing to dump TV off of channel 51. With 80% of us NOT using the over the air channels -- the "public good" is in more mobil bandwidth not TV bandwidth. Of course, with the bad economy folks have refused to pay high cable bills and are trying to use antennas. These folks are not potential buyers for all new gear. They are an "underclass."

4) Distribution ALWAYS requires recompression. HDCAM-SR is not a format used for editing. Better to downscale while recompressing to HDCAM-SR. What you shoot has nothing to do with distribution.

5) The whole big chip indie camera market is an accident. Canon wanted to add minimal video shooting capability to its still cameras. That's why the first and generation models were such a bitch to use and, other than shallow DOF, offered crappy video quality. The VG10 has way more aliasing than we would accept from a small-chip camcorder.

=================

BUT, now the reverse case. The Asian companies have no choice but to assume the world of the future will be like the world of the past. In their view they simply need to make huge improvements is quality and we will buy into it. Increasing resolution and frame-rate are time tested ways of growing sales. But, then audio cassettes introduced mobility. Kids now seem to have no interest in quality -- mobility is the key.

So MP3 music through crappy earphones is fine by them. Watching massively compressed video on an iPhone is fine. If this trend continues, the Asian electronics companies are in deep trouble. Frankly, most folks will shoot everything on their iPhone 5.

Confirmation of this alternate:

"Research firm IHS iSuppli has issued a report saying only 13 percent of U.S. consumers who didn't purchase a TV in the second quarter planned to buy one in the next three to 12 months. The number of likely buyers fell from 32 percent in the first quarter. Even worse news for TV makers, IHS iSuppli found that 83 percent of survey respondents said they did not plan to buy a new TV in the next 12 months.

The research firm said the intent to buy is the lowest since it began asking these questions in 2010.

"The findings suggest a growing willingness among U.S. consumers to suspend -- if not totally abandon -- their ongoing love affair with the television, the primary entertainment device for many American households," said IHS iSuppli analyst Riddhi Patel. "A sort of wait-and-see attitude has taken hold -- whether it is waiting for the economy to improve, or for television prices to fall some more, or for the arrival of better deals that combine both reduced prices and high-end TV features."

New TV features such as 3D and Internet access were not considered important in luring potential buyers to the store. The research firm surveyed 45,000 U.S. households."


But, there is an opening for 4K2K and BD. "iSuppli said consumers who are looking to buy a new TV are most influenced by PICTURE QUALITY, price, and SCREEN SIZE. "

Bottom-line, 4K2K is the only "new" thing Asia can offer to get folks to buy new HDTVs. And, I believe most camcorder buyers will go for 4X more resolution (and 60p) than shallow DOF. But, Sony won't make us choose. We'll get both.

PS: The VG30 can easily be 4K2K. 16MP chips can deliver 2MP (8X reduction) or 8MP (2X reduction). 24MP can deliver 2MP (12X reduction) or 8MP (3X reduction). In fact, 24MP is perfect for 4K2K. Watch for 4K2K in the VG30 and FS200 and F3 once they all move to 24MP sensors.
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Old August 31st, 2011, 07:13 PM   #34
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

Hey Steve, kinda of a fun debate huh? Only a couple of points, dealing with OTA. While it's true President Obama is pushing for the sale of the higher freqs, it's not a done deal yet, and there are many ways set up to help protest this movement, including good old NAB:

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/2...auction-action

Congress.org - Soapbox

That said, many broadcasters have protected themselves by moving to lower freqs during the initial transition to HDTV (at least in the Detroit area - yup, no cable for me - just OTA).

Far as the VG20 goes, will it be something indie film makers will be able to embrace, or have you seen something in the specs/released footage that gives you pause?
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Old September 1st, 2011, 07:00 PM   #35
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

The 20 is what the 10 should have been. I'm glad I skipped the 10 and wrote my sBook primarily on the NEX-5.

But the unanswered question is can you see aliasing.

And, will the new NEX-5 still offer greater value. Given the horrible no-see touch buttons on the 10 and 20 I'm betting on the NEX-5.

But the sleeper is the NEX-7.

PS: OTA is OK if you only want networks, but how about: AMC-HD, BBC-HD, CNBC-HD, CNN-HD, HBO, MSNBC-HD, TCM, and about 20 more HD channels.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 01:57 AM   #36
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

I think 1920X1080 is enough After all this can be projected on a massive cinema screen. I already think HD highlights details on people that is exaggerated and can make actors look awful. I think we already reached the point of what the eye can see already.

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This is what I believe the future should be. 37" TV that costs little to run and that folds out to 2:35 and 80" Screen size for HD films. I think its also about time sound quality was on the agenda.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 02:39 AM   #37
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

Interesting thread, I dunno about this cam, the first Handycams were pocket size things for the general consumer public.

This NEX-VG20 Handycam falls in between the consumer and prosumer/pro cracks .. large size, multiple lens but no XLR inputs.

Maybe Sony are following the car industry, the BMW 3 series is now as large as their 5 series, so BM brings along the 1 series. Soon we'll see a new tiny Handycam for the public again or have the phones taken over that role.

Video made me feel homesick tho. The light in the southern hemisphere IS brighter than the north.

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Old September 2nd, 2011, 04:00 AM   #38
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

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I think 1920X1080 is enough. After all this can be projected on a massive cinema screen. I already think HD highlights details on people that is exaggerated and can make actors look awful. I think we already reached the point of what the eye can see already.
When I first saw Sony HDTV in Tokyo in 1986 I thought so too. I called it "Hyper Real."

I've 1080p60 on an OLED and it was wonderful!

I'm told 8K4K, UHD, provides a near 3D effect because one is looking through a virtual window.

2MP is way too little. About 1/6th of 35 film.

In fact, while HD has about 5X more rez than SD -- 35MM film (e.g., slides we all used to shoot) has about 5X more rez than HD. We won't get the fine detail we're used to seeing in still photos and movies until we can capture 8MP to 16MP.

That's why NHK is researching UHD and 4K2K is the next step on the way.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 10:24 AM   #39
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

Steve - just can't justify spending $1,500 a year on TV.... Plus, OTA does have some advantages:

- Cost. I've spent about $200 for various antennas over the past 3 years - a cost that pales to the $4,500 in cable bills I've saved.

- It often looks better (Comcast compresses the heck out of their signals). The difference is very apparent during live sports - many of my friends now come over to watch a game b/c it does look just that much better.

- It's "live" - there's usually a 5-10 second delay (which comes into play if you're watching a game, but listening to the radio broadcast),

- Channels not usually available, like aux channels and stations from far away towns.

- You don't have to deal with nasty customer reps.

Yeah, I miss about 6 channels... but you can download most of that programing, which is what I do.

Far as the higher resolutions, it's coming, no doubt about it. And if the light sensitivity is equal (or nearly equal), what DP/Director wouldn't want that higher resolution? But it's not quite here yet - at least not in a sub-$10K camera.

That in part is why I'm so interested in the VG20 - if it can delivery a solid, 1080p image close to a FS100 or even with the current line-up of Canon DSLRs, that's enough. Just don't want to invest $5 grand plus on a cam that I KNOW will be totally obsolete in 3 years.

And hopefully, the mini-mic input - combined with that cool 5.1 in cam mic set up - will be good enough not to have to drag along a zoom.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 03:39 PM   #40
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

I completely agree on being careful about rushing into buy anything really expensive. The VG20 seems safe although the NEX-5N offers almost everything for under $700. I don't need 5.1 sound. I much prefer the rear mounted NEX-5 controls and the option of the super hi-rez VF. So I likely would still go for the cheapest that delivers the same quality video as the VG20.

Then get the new transparent mirror A-mount adaptor and buy old lenses.

In Las Vegas from COX I get 30 HD channels. Interestingly, compression artifacts on sports doesn't happen with 720p60. 720p60 needs only about 15Mps of the 19Mps.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 05:24 PM   #41
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

I love my Canon DSLR, don't get me wrong, but after a year and half of using it I'm very ready for a "true" video camera form factor.

Even though the VG20 doesn't look much bigger then a DSLR, I'm guessing it's gotta be a little easier to just shoot video with. And the ability to still shoot stills is one that I know 'd use.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 09:14 PM   #42
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

I just got through shooting a horror type flick in a shack with a single light bulb. Interior shot for night but during day. We blocked off all windows... I shot with the 5 d, mostly with single bulbs light fixtures. We knew it was going to black and white so color correction wasn't big issue. But the 5D was spectacular in the low light situation.

While I have gotten pretty good wih the 5D, I too would like the VG20 to be its replacement in many shooting situations. But I doubt its going to outdo the 5D in low light.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 03:39 AM   #43
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

Any info on whether or not the mini-HDMI out will be clean? Looks like it's not on the 5n....

Which is going to be a make it or break feature for a lot of shooters. Hope that some of the added price of the VG20 means the HDMI output is clean.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:48 PM   #44
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

I would like to know if Sony will let the VG20 use something like the HXR-FMU128 for backup purposes; I know it would eat lots of FS100 sells and probably it won't happen but one can only wish...
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 08:42 PM   #45
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Re: NEX-VG20 in November

The spec for the FMU 128 is that it is a device made specifically for the Sony NX5.
That suggests that it probably will not work on any other cameras.
But there are other back up devices that should do the job.
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