Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems > Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900

Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900
Interchangeable lens AVCHD camcorders using E-Mount lenses.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 8th, 2011, 11:44 AM   #16
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

I was told by Sony support that actual official release is the 9th, and that my purchase from Sony Style was a prerelease sale.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2011, 11:48 AM   #17
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,063
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Chris - did Sony say they were going to call/email you back an answer to your questions from yesterday?
John Vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2011, 12:03 PM   #18
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Yes, but no specific date given. I figured I will call back tomorrow if I hear nothing.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2011, 12:59 PM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 4,866
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
One of the things I reported as not being on board was the Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO), decribed as:
..
"Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO)

Dynamic Range Optimizer improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows while maintaining highlight detail. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off. "

So there is no misunderstanding, .there is actually a back light correction tool on board the camera. It is either an off or on affair and is total automated. There is no slider or any other method of adjusting.
Chris - DRO is a carryover function from Sony STILL cameras - Backlight correction is from the video side.

While the two may be related in terms of using similar algorithms to optimize image quality, the DRO is typically achieved by taking multiple near-simultaneous "still" exposures (with different exposure settings), and overlaying them (think HDR) to create a final still with more overall lattitude than a single still could achieve. I doubt that such an "effect" could be achieved while shooting 60fps... for obvious reasons.

IF DRO is anywhere, it will ONLY be available when the camera is in stills mode - menus that don't apply to specific modes are "hidden" to reduce clutter (and incidently make it REALLY hard to remember where some functions are!), this is by design, and is part of how Sony designs the menus - rather than leaving EVERYTHING showing (but perhaps greyed out when not available). FWIW, I didn't see much of anything in the manual on the "stills" capabilities of the camera (which WERE of interest to me).

Instead, as is fairly typical of Sony VIDEO cameras, there is likely to be both a "backlight" and a "spotlight" compensation - designed to be "auto" by analyzing the image and optimizing for any faces to either correctly expose against a strong backlight situation (overexposing for the frame, but for "correct" face exposure), or alternatively to underexpose to prevent faces from being blown out against a dark background. NEITHER function increases overall lattitude beyond that which the CMOS and processor can produce from a SINGLE exposure/frame. Basically, the camera just rides the exposure instead of you doing it manually... but it's also probably doing some other tricks to optimize faces at the same time.

Hope that will help clarify at least that ONE functional issue - the VG10 and 20 both have pretty strong ties to the ALPHA and NEX cameras, which of course are STILL cameras with VIDEO capabilities, I considered the idea that the VG20 can also take stills to be a potential plus, but it doesn't necessarily make it a "DSLR replacement", though it has many similar features to it's Alpha/NEX siblings. Maybe Sony decided to axe the stills features as they didn't make much sense in a camcorder form factor? Somehow I seem to remember that this was supposed to shoot RAW in stills mode, ought to see if that's still there...

What I find more troubling are the "missing" scene modes and the apparently shortened WB menu, particularly since these features ARE a part and parcel of the NEX/Alpha lines, and even the current crop of P&S cams that shoot video... and they ARE available when shooting video! I know that the "scene" modes are buried and hidden on those, but short of suggesting you poke around looking for a button that says "SCN" or high ISO (that seems to access the additional features on the P&S cams!), not sure what else to suggest - IF the WB and scene options are there on your VG20, they may only be accessible when you're in "just the right mode"...

The manual wasn't much help, but I'm familiar enough with Sony cameras and features that I've tried to "fill in the blanks", at least give you some possible things to try anyhow! And again, it's possible this doesn't have final firmware - with all the chaos and natural disasters, I think Sony is just desperately trying to keep product on the shelves, and QC may be suffering.

Early reviews of the A77 (on roughly the same release schedule as the VG20) and the NEX7 (was on the same schedule, now delayed because of the Thai floods) were with "unfinished" firmware, and the reviews suffered because of it - Sony may be trying to avoid that with the VG20, particularly since it's not exactly a "hot" product to begin with... while still meeting original shipping schedules.

I wouldn't give up just yet - the camera looks pretty good image wise, although I too am in the "overpriced" camp, especially when considering the NEX5n...
Dave Blackhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2011, 03:54 PM   #20
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,063
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
Yes, but no specific date given. I figured I will call back tomorrow if I hear nothing.
Chris - did you hear back from them yet?

BTW - watched your youtube vid of trying to find the sharpness/scene color settings - I Don't think you left any stone unturned.

Thanks for putting in all the work you've done.
John Vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #21
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

I spoke with Charlie at support again today. He indicates it is looking like the listed features is a market snaffu and that the camera is not intended to have the feature I had been asking about. He said that he would have confirmation soon on that issue.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2011, 05:38 PM   #22
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
What I find more troubling are the "missing" scene modes and the apparently shortened WB menu, particularly since these features ARE a part and parcel of the NEX/Alpha lines, and even the current crop of P&S cams that shoot video... and they ARE available when shooting video! I know that the "scene" modes are buried and hidden on those, but short of suggesting you poke around looking for a button that says "SCN" or high ISO (that seems to access the additional features on the P&S cams!), not sure what else to suggest - IF the WB and scene options are there on your VG20, they may only be accessible when you're in "just the right mode"...

.
As I mentioned above, from my conversation with the support guy, he seems to be getting the word that the functions aren't intended to in the camera. And I think we can understand why. My experience with the camera thus far is that I am getting some great shots with it, given the fact I am new to the NEX series. The added features would seal the deal for me. Right now, I am going to do some work seeing if I can work inside the Cineform Firstlight process to get what I want. If so, I will likely keep the camera.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13th, 2011, 09:24 PM   #23
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Kenilworth, NJ
Posts: 85
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Chris,

Does the camera have the variable frame rates it's suppose to have? And if so, have you've shot in either 24P, 30P, or 60P? And again, if so, can you tell me if the footage in any of those framerates looks either good or great? Also, how is the sound with the camcorder? Do you recommend using the on-camera mic or a shotgun mic with a XLR adapter?
Ozzy Alvarez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13th, 2011, 09:54 PM   #24
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Ozzy:

My primary interest is 24p, but I have briefly tested the other frame rates. If you check out golf scene at the end of this piece, it show a 60p scene. Problem is it was reduced to 24p for the upload.

MiscVG20shots.mp4 - YouTube

I have no doubt that these frame rate will look fine.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2011, 11:45 AM   #25
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Well folks, I talked to support again today. Mike, at third level support stated that it was confirmed that the features were not in the camera, and that the matter was referred to marketing. He could do nothing for. He did provide me with a number to Sony Store to contact raise the matter there.

In the meantime, despite support advising them of the error, Sony's ad at the store continues to list the missing menu items as available on the camera.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2011, 12:55 PM   #26
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 513
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

This is confirmed over on Vimeo, where another VG20 owner reports a similar conversation with Sony support: Is it true that vg20 is missing basic picture controls ? - Sony NEX-VG20 User Group forum on Vimeo

Interestingly, in that conversation, the Sony rep "...confirmed that the Creative Styles, and the AdobeRGB/sRGB features were missing, and that it would take a few days to "correct". They didn't know if correction would involve rewriting the specs, or issuing firmware to bring the camera up to the specs."

Hopefully, they'll choose the firmware upgrade!

Again, appreciate your work on this, Chris.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution
Bill Bruner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #27
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Apple Valley CA
Posts: 4,866
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Again, I'd speculate that the Sensor and Bionz chips in the VG20 SHOULD be the same as are found in the NEX 5n, so it seems strange that the features found in that camera are MIA. Only explanation would be they just didn't think a consumer oriented "videocamera" needed those extra bells and whistles, and they left out the user interface to access the "hooks" in the hardware.

It would be my guess that if there's enough "squawking", there could be a tweaked firmware made available rather easily. Sony is already releasing updates for the A77/A65/NEX 7, whether they will do something for the VG20 is up for a gamble...
Dave Blackhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2011, 02:14 PM   #28
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bruner View Post
This is confirmed over on Vimeo, where another VG20 owner reports a similar conversation with Sony support: Is it true that vg20 is missing basic picture controls ? - Sony NEX-VG20 User Group forum on Vimeo

Interestingly, in that conversation, the Sony rep "...confirmed that the Creative Styles, and the AdobeRGB/sRGB features were missing, and that it would take a few days to "correct". They didn't know if correction would involve rewriting the specs, or issuing firmware to bring the camera up to the specs."

Hopefully, they'll choose the firmware upgrade!

Again, appreciate your work on this, Chris.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution
I posted over there a few minutes back.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #29
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Well I went to Vimeo site today, and read what H. Paul Moon, the moderator of the a VG10/VG20 forum there had originally posted. He was very disrespectful of us here at DVInfo.

His comment about DVInfo was:

"FOLKS: Evidently the thing that set this panic in motion was the preceding panic over at dvinfo.net that is unfounded. It reminds me why I never visit that site anymore; there are experts mixed in with misleading amateurs there."

Even more shocking was his next statement a few sentences down. After saying he wasn't apologizing for Sony, he wrote:

"Lastly, let's make room for a related debate: that any serious production work does not fiddle with (or at that, limit) the look of footage in-the-field. A proper stage of color grading, that includes separate tasks of luma and chroma correction, are due diligence for anything you shoot. You're better off aiming for faithfulness in-the-field, and later dialing into the look you want during post (especially for the flexibility to change your mind later, establish continuity, etc.)." see second post in this thread:

Is it true that vg20 is missing basic picture controls ? - Sony NEX-VG20 User Group forum on Vimeo

I subsequently posted in detail about my experience with a plethora of cameras, my time and DVInfo, and I specifically commented about his apparent belief that we needed to shoot everything faithfully so we wouldn't lose anything in post. I brought up the fact that RED and other cinema shooting camera clearly don't follow his advise.

I also posted extensive Youtube links to all the testing I had posted.

All of that was pulled by Mr. Moon, and he has now locked the thread, stating:

"H. Paul Moon locked this topic on Nov 15, 2011 because - This has gotten out of hand, really for the first time in over a year that this forum has existed. And really, the chatter is originating from a mere trio, among the over 1k participants here and at the hybrid group.

There is no inconsistency whatsoever between the published manual and the included features. There were minor misprints on NEX-VG20 feature lists from Sony marketing that have been, already are, or will be corrected.

However, the majority of features alleged to be missing were never, ever intended for video mode -- and in the year of discussion about the NEX-VG10, no one ever got confused about this. So, e.g., there is no DRO or HDR mode during video shooting, because that's obviously a technology which involves shooting consecutive still photographs. Just one example.

ALL questions on this matter can be resolved by referring to the owner's manual at:

nexvg20.info/​NEXVG20_manual.pdf"
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2011, 09:45 PM   #30
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Were one to want to defend Sony, this would be the way to go -- claim the missing functions are not critical.

One may not NEED to make such adjustments in the field, and PERHAPS they should be done in post.

But, in practice Sony and most everyone else includes these functions because SOME do want to establish a look in the field and reduce the amount of effort in post.

And, in some cases these controls make a camera able to be used. For example, my Pana FZ100 like most cameras tends to blow out sky. Turns-out the VIBRANT setting alters gamma and enables the camera to capture nice blue sky. Who knew?

Being able to adjust Contrast alters whether some cameras clip at 100% or 110%.

Sharpness, which I never lower, can be vital for some who plans to transfer to film.

Frankly, I think the features were intended to be in the camera. I think it was lost. My guess is that it will be added. But, if the missing makes the camera not what you want, then you might want to return and wait.

I still think I'd wait until the NEX-7 arrives. Sony will let you order two cameras.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony Alpha and NEX Camera Systems > Sony NEX-VG10 / VG20 / VG30 / VG900

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:43 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network