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Old December 24th, 2013, 05:31 AM   #16
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Re: VG30 moire

Hi,

I was testing the VG20 and the EA50 before i bought the EA50 early this year.
Both use the same sensor but the processing seems to be different.
The EA50 has all those tweaking options to adjust your picture according to your motiv and your needs. This is important if you like to "squeeze" the max out of the 8bit footage.
Moire was also a tad better on the EA50, it seems to have a stronger AA-filter to help with that.

I had some moire problems while filming men in striped shirts and sometimes with trees in the wind. Moire doesn't come often in still pictures, I only had problems with moving objects. That's why I personally don't give much on studio comparisons. I also found the picture a little to soft, when filming landscape panoramas and the likes.

At the end I switched to the FS100, that produces easily the better picture. But the form factor is much more of a pain. I liked the EA50s form factor a lot. I never used any rigging. Just the EA50 with metabones adapter and the stabilized Canon EF 17-55.

Now, I switched to the FS100 and a speedbooster for having a low light king, what I often need. I'll attach a stabilized Canon 24-105/4,0 (which is f2,8 with the speedbooster) for run'n gun and a stabilized Canon 35/2,0 (which will be like f1,4). This is pretty much everything I'll ever need hopefully.
As filters I use a variable ND from schneider and a polarizer.
But I'll need some form of a rig for the FS100 too... :(
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Old December 29th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #17
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Re: VG30 moire

I always find it fascinating to see how Sony "fits" it's fleet of cameras together. It's such a carefully crafted shell game of feature splitting, usability and image quality that separates a camera from the next higher up model.

In terms of the VG20 moire (and line skipping) issue. It seems to me that it's a very important "feature" that needs to exist on the VG20 to keep it away from the FS100. (I think the FS100 was given a slightly heavier low pass filter to keep it away from the F5...even though they share the same sensor, the F5 is a bit sharper)

The usability features all have work arounds. We can rig up the VG20 is all kinds of ways to get us what we want. (like XLR to mini plug adapters) Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do to alter the sensor readout. The best lenses on the planet cant help with how the sensor is scanned and the image is assembled..

I'm very curious to see if Sony continues the "VG" series and makes a new 4k VG. The current 16mp sensor is roughly 2x times the 8 mp resolution needed for 4K video. If this new VG 4k camera skipped only 1of 2 lines (every "other" line) I suspect this is would not create "heavy" amounts of moire in 4k mode. Sony pro division could veto the development a VG 4k "HandyCam" like that though. It might be too close to another camera that they have in development for their Pro market.

CES 2014 is coming soon. Let's see what Sony does.

Last edited by Cliff Totten; December 29th, 2013 at 03:59 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #18
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Re: VG30 moire

it seems strangle to cripple the vg30&20. If they were to offer a similar image to the fs100, at least as far as moire and aliasing was concerned, in a small package like the vg30, i donīt see it competing with the more expensive cameras as it offers less control over the image but for some people the form factor of the vg30 would be perfect. I donīt want a camera as complex as the fs100 for weddings and events but a vg30 without excessive moire and aliasing would be the perfect camera for me at this point.
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Old December 31st, 2013, 10:19 AM   #19
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Re: VG30 moire

I hear you,...as buyers, we want our cameras to have no "artificial" limitations. Feature protections and camera crippling are anoying to us but critical for Sony, Canon and Panasonic to charge more for models with less restrictions and higher performance.

One simple and really annoying example is the NXCAM NX30. You would expect that all "NXCAM" branded camera be allowed to have the basic 3 controlls of exposure. Gain, shutter speed and iris. This is not the case with the NX30. Sony decided to cripple it in the tackiest of ways:

1.) Will not display the gain amount you are shooting with on the screen. (however they DO allow you to see what gain amount you shot your video with on "playback" only)

2.) Sony blocked the ability to control gain and shutter speed independently. You can choose one but not both.

3.) A control called "exposure" was allowed with a locked shutter speed but it "clicks" or "notches" the video as you go up and down in steps. (it's a "step" not a "ramp")

4.) "Smooth" exposure up and down is ONLY allowed using "auto exposure" + and - EV.

Bottom line, if you want full manual control Sony needs you to buy the next higher model, the NX70. (which I was forced to do)

Ever wonder why when shooting in 24p, the VG20 was only allowed to have "1/25" shutter speed? 25 shutter in a 24 frame?...why not true 24 shutter? Other Handycams have that same limitations too. It's not a big deal but it's enough to make a "pro" say: "eeeww...no, not for me"

Sony was always fully aware of VG20 moire. They knew exactly how much moire and interoplation it would have when it was being designed in the blueprint stage.

I was at NAB two years ago talking about VG20 moire with Sony. They said: "Sure...not a problem, if you dont want moire than we have the PERFECT camera for you, it's our FS100" (yup,..I bought a FS100 too!! and they were right, I DO love that thing...lol)

Lets see if the next 4K revolution changes any of these crippling tactics. (I want the industry to write a book..."100 Ways to Carefully Cripple and Market a Camera)

CT ;-)
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Old December 31st, 2013, 03:47 PM   #20
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Re: VG30 moire

An Broadcast ENG mate of mine uses an EA-50 professionally which we know has the same sensor as the VG-20/30. He records exclusively from that camera's 10bit SDI output (with timecode) to a BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle SSD recorder but not to ProRes or DNxHD. He records uncompressed and claims the 'picture quality far exceeds' both the onboard 4:2:0 AVCHD compression and the 4:2:2 8bit HDMI output!

I have no reason to doubt his claims as this would be the optimum HD quality path but with all the talk on these forums the EA-50's pros and cons, I have never even read a mention of anyone using the camera's SDI output! Unfortunately, my mate does not contribute to forums. He claims he's too busy earning a living...
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Old December 31st, 2013, 04:15 PM   #21
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Re: VG30 moire

Maybe i m wrong but i thought the ea50 doesnt have sdi out, only hdmi out
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Old December 31st, 2013, 04:27 PM   #22
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Re: VG30 moire

That is what I thought too but there is a 'timecode out' (BNC) socket on the EA-50 and this is where he takes his recording from.

According to Sony's specs for the camera, the 'timecode' output seems also to be the SDI output but I have no firsthand experience with this camera so my information is of course 'second hand'.
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 09:54 AM   #23
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Re: VG30 moire

Not that it matters to me as I don't have the camera anymore but maybe it might be of interest to others, acc to the sony brochure there is only a uncompressed 422 8bit digital HD/SD signal during recording send out from the hdmi output terminal with additional timecode making it equivalent to a sdi signal but nowhere I can find a mention of a direct 10 bit sdi output that even would exceed the quality of the hdmi output. Also see here: HDMI Output: Is it uncompressed?

Maybe you can ask your mate to elaborate a bit more about this because it seems he is using a output from the camera that doesn't exist. Unless proven otherwise I would take his statement about a 422 10 bit output that far exceeds the hmdi 422 8 bit with a big grain of salt.
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 12:51 PM   #24
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Re: VG30 moire

Noa is correct. There is no SDI output on the EA50. In fact, there are NO BNC connectors at all, even the component out is RCA connectors.

There is also no traditional TC out connection for sync. The HDMI output allows you to turn TC on or off.

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Old January 2nd, 2014, 02:15 PM   #25
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Re: VG30 moire

Yes, I have asked him for conformation of this as I know he uses another camera for broadcast work so suspect he may be confusing the two. Will post his reply ASAP.

Last edited by Craig Marshall; January 2nd, 2014 at 07:40 PM.
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 07:41 PM   #26
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Re: VG30 moire

Here is my engineering friend's reply and explanation:

"I should have stated in my previous email that I hire a Sony EX3 and sometimes an F800 camera for certain jobs both of which I record to my Hyperdeck Shuttle. Both cameras have full 10 bit output on their BNC spigots including time code data embedded in the VANC. My NEX EA50 only outputs 8 Bit and for me it really depends on the job at hand. I have recorded the 8 bit time coded HDMI O/P to the Hyperdeck as uncompressed 10 Bit and the recordings are superb. The extra 2 bits whilst not representing any actual sampled data, they do allow for better dynamic range adjustment during colour grading. (1024 steps of adjustment in 10bit as opposed to 256 steps of adjustment for 8bit)"
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Old January 6th, 2014, 07:47 AM   #27
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Re: VG30 moire

It looks like what he does is the same as you can do directly inside a nle with 8 bit footage, in below video (starting around the 8 minute mark) its clearly demonstrated what advantages you get grading 8 bit footage in a 10 bit environment.

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