NX5 native clips from Sean Seah

Ron Evans · March 1st, 2010, 08:40 AM

Hi Corey
If you want your video to look like film I would focus on framing of the shot, control of depth of field and even in post play with colour/saturation. Until you have these things set in your mind I would just shoot in 60i. Don't bother deinterlacing as DVD is interlace format and the TV will do a better job of deinterlacing anyway in most cases or if its a CRT it will not need deinterlacing.
As you can tell I see no need for 24p unless you are going to transfer to film for projection. 30p is a better choice for a slow frame rate for computers. I am not a fan of any slow frame rate as the juddering and motion artifacts really disturbs my senses.

Ron Evans

Corey Benoit · March 1st, 2010, 09:41 PM

what about 60p?

Ron Evans · March 1st, 2010, 10:01 PM

60P is nice and smooth. I would love 1920x1080P60 but that is not available in many cameras at the moment. For most 1280x720P60 is good but until I have just got the NX5U I have not had a camera to shoot 720P.

Ron Evans

Corey Benoit · March 2nd, 2010, 12:17 AM

whats the difference between 60p and 60i?

Ron Evans · March 2nd, 2010, 07:30 AM

Both have a frame rate of 60fps but 60i only records fields( half the vertical resolution alternating odd and even fields) whereas 60p records a full resolution frame. These fields are not odd and even fields from the same frame but are displaced by 1/60 sec so cannot just be added together. So the temporal motion is the same but the 60p video has more instantaneous vertical resolution. For a 1080i video 540 odd lines are recorded then 540 even lines 1/60 sec later. A CRT has latency in the phosphors that fool our eyes into thinking the full frame is there all the time. The combination of our eyes, brain and the phosphors make us think the image is at 60 frames a sec. A LCD or plasma has to construct a full frame from these alternating fields every 1/60 sec to display and its the quality and scaling of this deinterlacing that governs how good an LCD or plasma picture looks. Cheap ones do a really bad job good ones make 60i close to 60p.

Ron Evans

Corey Benoit · March 2nd, 2010, 07:36 AM

ron could you give me some insight on this, your thoughts are very awesome, and i trust your very much....

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-...l-sellers.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...ml#post1493448

Jason Goldberg · March 2nd, 2010, 10:32 PM

Ron,

At the risk of further hijacking this thread, you're insights on formats to shoot are really interesting/helpful.

I understand the technical distinctions between the various formats, but hadn't considered how the refresh rates on users monitors would factor in!

I'm not a film maker / am not looking for the film look per se, and you've convinced me not to shoot 24p. 24p didn't seem that appealing anyway as it just has to have less temporal data than 30p or 60i.

I mainly shoot stuff that's going to get edited and uploaded to video sharing sites or encoded as MP4 files for playback on PC's. Often scaled down from it's native resolution. I do want to preserve the option to scale down and burn NTSC DVD's or keep native res and burn BluRays.

I'm inclined to shoot 1920x1080 vs. 1280x720 as it's just more pixels and I assume that I'm always better off scaling down than having to scale up. I had been leaning towards 60i, as it's just naively what we're all used to for video, and obviously most progressive displays are pretty good at de-interlacing.

However, I can imagine that scaling the interlaced source is harder than scaling a progressive source. Would you suggest I shoot 1080p30 as my primary format, if I'm most often playing back on PC's (typically with progressive only displays these days)?

I think 1080p30 is a native format on Bluray and I know it's all subjective and everything is a trade off, but I don't imagine that interlacing while downsampling from 1080p30 to NTSC is going to look THAT bad for DVD playback.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Ron Evans · March 3rd, 2010, 09:19 AM

Unfortunately the Bluray spec for NTSC is only 1920x1080 60i, or 1920x1080 24p, 1440x1080 60i, or 24p, or 1280x720 24p. No 30p or 60p support. Scaling de-interlacing is an issue. I shoot 60i but my output is SD DVD or Bluray. I don't like the temporal motion of slow frame rates so my choice is easy. 30p has the same issues of camera movement and shot composition as 24p it will just playback easier on PC's and will be easier to integrate into a 60i stream.

Ron Evans

March 2nd, 2010, 07:36 AM	#21
Corey Benoit Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: www.faymusmedia.com Posts: 203	ron could you give me some insight on this, your thoughts are very awesome, and i trust your very much.... http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-...l-sellers.html http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...ml#post1493448 Last edited by Corey Benoit; March 2nd, 2010 at 08:14 AM.

March 1st, 2010, 08:40 AM	#16
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Hi Corey If you want your video to look like film I would focus on framing of the shot, control of depth of field and even in post play with colour/saturation. Until you have these things set in your mind I would just shoot in 60i. Don't bother deinterlacing as DVD is interlace format and the TV will do a better job of deinterlacing anyway in most cases or if its a CRT it will not need deinterlacing. As you can tell I see no need for 24p unless you are going to transfer to film for projection. 30p is a better choice for a slow frame rate for computers. I am not a fan of any slow frame rate as the juddering and motion artifacts really disturbs my senses. Ron Evans

March 1st, 2010, 09:41 PM	#17
Corey Benoit Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: www.faymusmedia.com Posts: 203	what about 60p?

March 1st, 2010, 10:01 PM	#18
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	60P is nice and smooth. I would love 1920x1080P60 but that is not available in many cameras at the moment. For most 1280x720P60 is good but until I have just got the NX5U I have not had a camera to shoot 720P. Ron Evans

March 2nd, 2010, 12:17 AM	#19
Corey Benoit Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: www.faymusmedia.com Posts: 203	whats the difference between 60p and 60i?

March 2nd, 2010, 07:30 AM	#20
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Both have a frame rate of 60fps but 60i only records fields( half the vertical resolution alternating odd and even fields) whereas 60p records a full resolution frame. These fields are not odd and even fields from the same frame but are displaced by 1/60 sec so cannot just be added together. So the temporal motion is the same but the 60p video has more instantaneous vertical resolution. For a 1080i video 540 odd lines are recorded then 540 even lines 1/60 sec later. A CRT has latency in the phosphors that fool our eyes into thinking the full frame is there all the time. The combination of our eyes, brain and the phosphors make us think the image is at 60 frames a sec. A LCD or plasma has to construct a full frame from these alternating fields every 1/60 sec to display and its the quality and scaling of this deinterlacing that governs how good an LCD or plasma picture looks. Cheap ones do a really bad job good ones make 60i close to 60p. Ron Evans

March 2nd, 2010, 10:32 PM	#22
Jason Goldberg New Boot Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 19	Ron, At the risk of further hijacking this thread, you're insights on formats to shoot are really interesting/helpful. I understand the technical distinctions between the various formats, but hadn't considered how the refresh rates on users monitors would factor in! I'm not a film maker / am not looking for the film look per se, and you've convinced me not to shoot 24p. 24p didn't seem that appealing anyway as it just has to have less temporal data than 30p or 60i. I mainly shoot stuff that's going to get edited and uploaded to video sharing sites or encoded as MP4 files for playback on PC's. Often scaled down from it's native resolution. I do want to preserve the option to scale down and burn NTSC DVD's or keep native res and burn BluRays. I'm inclined to shoot 1920x1080 vs. 1280x720 as it's just more pixels and I assume that I'm always better off scaling down than having to scale up. I had been leaning towards 60i, as it's just naively what we're all used to for video, and obviously most progressive displays are pretty good at de-interlacing. However, I can imagine that scaling the interlaced source is harder than scaling a progressive source. Would you suggest I shoot 1080p30 as my primary format, if I'm most often playing back on PC's (typically with progressive only displays these days)? I think 1080p30 is a native format on Bluray and I know it's all subjective and everything is a trade off, but I don't imagine that interlacing while downsampling from 1080p30 to NTSC is going to look THAT bad for DVD playback. Thanks for any thoughts.

March 3rd, 2010, 09:19 AM	#23
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Unfortunately the Bluray spec for NTSC is only 1920x1080 60i, or 1920x1080 24p, 1440x1080 60i, or 24p, or 1280x720 24p. No 30p or 60p support. Scaling de-interlacing is an issue. I shoot 60i but my output is SD DVD or Bluray. I don't like the temporal motion of slow frame rates so my choice is easy. 30p has the same issues of camera movement and shot composition as 24p it will just playback easier on PC's and will be easier to integrate into a 60i stream. Ron Evans