1080/24P Vs. 720/60P at DVinfo.net

Mark A. Foley · January 24th, 2011, 03:19 AM

My cameras arrived on Friday and spent the weekend getting all three setup and checked out. Having migrated from the FX1 platform, having both 1080/24P and 720/60P settings is new to me. I'm at a crossroads deciding what I want to do for my wedding clients. 720/60P is buttery smooth on pans...allows pretty decent velocity changes without picture degradation...but its still the "video" look. 24P with a little punch in the pictures settings gives a nice cinematic look I haven't been able to do out of the camera. However, slo-mo options seem to be a bit limited and I need to be aware of the speed of pans etc.

I don't want to start a wart between the settings, but would like others inputs of what they use....

Note: I was going to post this on my wedding videographers forum, but all they seem to want to discuss is DSLR stuff....which I'm not knocking...but I'm not ready to empty my bank account trying to find the 'perfect lens"...etc. :-)

Tom Hardwick · January 24th, 2011, 04:36 AM

I guess you've got to ask yourself in your clients want what you describe as a nice cinematic look Mark. 720p is good if ever you want to peel individual frames off the timeline for stills because otherwise you'll be deinterlacing the 1080i and losing resolution. But 1080i and 720/50p look exactly the same - they both have 50 different pictures in each second, so are both as smooth as one-another.

I've shot weddings interlaced and progressive on my NX5 and I wonder what all the fuss is about. Like you I don't want to jeopardise the slo-mo option so I'll never shoot 24 / 25p. Some say that the down-convert to SD is easier and better if you've shot 50p up front but in all honesty - it's mighty hard to spot the difference unless you're shooting moving test charts.

I read a lot on DV1 about various frame rates, knees, crush, CMOS, moiré, gamma and the film / video look. Great fun to discuss the tweaks on offer, but sometimes (I look at a lot of wedding videos) I wish the film-makers had simply spent more time learning the art and craft of composure and exposure, of audio smoothing and understanding that great truth: editing is real life with the boring bits cut out.

tom.

Ron Evans · January 24th, 2011, 08:42 AM

You can still set up the camera with cinegamma etc and shoot film style as if it were 24p but in either 60i or 720p and avoid all the horrible stuttering and the necessary 3:2 pulldown for anyone to view on a normal 60hz TV from a SD DVD which has to be 60i in NTSC meaning 3:2 pulldown of 24p. Bluray can be true 24p but only people with TV refresh rates a multiple of 24( ie 120Hz etc LCD's) and with HDMI can really watch or they too will have 3:2 pulldown cadence. So most people in NTSC watch 24p with pulldown. So it really isn't 24p its the cadence and the exposure control that most people relate to 24p on TV. Personally I think 24p on TV looks terrible and nothing like film from a projector. I think most of the problem is that the cameraperson is used to video and does not understand the issue with slow frame rate shooting and has no experience with true film.

The NX5U has setups for various cinegamma that you can try and also modify yourself. The frame rate is up to you to choose. 1080i and 720p60 have the same exposure rate its just that one records the full frame and the other just a field each 1/60sec.

A few people I know have a DSLR as well just for the shallow depth of field dreamy shots if needed. Makes a nice contrast if you like that sort of thing.

I will upgrade my family camera now a XR500 to the new CX700 when they come out and then I will be able to shoot 1080P60. IF Sony come out with a NX6 with 1080P60 I will get that too as I like smooth motion and would love to get full HD progressive.

I shoot interlace with my NX5U as all the smaller Sony cams also used are interlace only.

Ron Evans

Mark A. Foley · January 24th, 2011, 08:50 AM

Have you ever posted something and later realized that was stupid (not really stupid)....

SInce I never had the varioous options before, it was a very simpple choice for me with the FX1...but now with the NX5 I do have more...but that doesn't mean I have to use all of them...

I do like allot of what I see (temporal resolution) with shooting at 720/60P and simply choose in post what look I want :-)

Ron Evans · January 24th, 2011, 12:04 PM

Hi Mark
I too moved from an FX1 that I still have, but it was not looking as good as the SR11 or certainly the XR500 AVCHD cams which is why I got the NX5U. At first I was a little disappointed in the NX5U as it didn't seem to be as good as the XR500. Sent back to Sony and eventually got the lens unit replaced and it is now reasonable. I now take a lot of care with focusing and really wish it had the spot focus of the consumer cameras and was as quick focusing. My projects are theatre shoots so camera is always in full manual but I liked to use the push focus to get close before fine tuning and now I just don't bother as it is just as quick to use the expanded focus/peaking to get in focus. Things I like over the FX1 are the long record times with the FMU ( no tapes to worry about) and the better audio control.

Ron Evans

January 24th, 2011, 03:19 AM	#1
Mark A. Foley Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bonaire, Ga. Posts: 356	1080/24P Vs. 720/60P My cameras arrived on Friday and spent the weekend getting all three setup and checked out. Having migrated from the FX1 platform, having both 1080/24P and 720/60P settings is new to me. I'm at a crossroads deciding what I want to do for my wedding clients. 720/60P is buttery smooth on pans...allows pretty decent velocity changes without picture degradation...but its still the "video" look. 24P with a little punch in the pictures settings gives a nice cinematic look I haven't been able to do out of the camera. However, slo-mo options seem to be a bit limited and I need to be aware of the speed of pans etc. I don't want to start a wart between the settings, but would like others inputs of what they use.... Note: I was going to post this on my wedding videographers forum, but all they seem to want to discuss is DSLR stuff....which I'm not knocking...but I'm not ready to empty my bank account trying to find the 'perfect lens"...etc. :-)

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January 24th, 2011, 04:36 AM	#2
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	I guess you've got to ask yourself in your clients want what you describe as a nice cinematic look Mark. 720p is good if ever you want to peel individual frames off the timeline for stills because otherwise you'll be deinterlacing the 1080i and losing resolution. But 1080i and 720/50p look exactly the same - they both have 50 different pictures in each second, so are both as smooth as one-another. I've shot weddings interlaced and progressive on my NX5 and I wonder what all the fuss is about. Like you I don't want to jeopardise the slo-mo option so I'll never shoot 24 / 25p. Some say that the down-convert to SD is easier and better if you've shot 50p up front but in all honesty - it's mighty hard to spot the difference unless you're shooting moving test charts. I read a lot on DV1 about various frame rates, knees, crush, CMOS, moiré, gamma and the film / video look. Great fun to discuss the tweaks on offer, but sometimes (I look at a lot of wedding videos) I wish the film-makers had simply spent more time learning the art and craft of composure and exposure, of audio smoothing and understanding that great truth: editing is real life with the boring bits cut out. tom.

January 24th, 2011, 08:42 AM	#3
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	You can still set up the camera with cinegamma etc and shoot film style as if it were 24p but in either 60i or 720p and avoid all the horrible stuttering and the necessary 3:2 pulldown for anyone to view on a normal 60hz TV from a SD DVD which has to be 60i in NTSC meaning 3:2 pulldown of 24p. Bluray can be true 24p but only people with TV refresh rates a multiple of 24( ie 120Hz etc LCD's) and with HDMI can really watch or they too will have 3:2 pulldown cadence. So most people in NTSC watch 24p with pulldown. So it really isn't 24p its the cadence and the exposure control that most people relate to 24p on TV. Personally I think 24p on TV looks terrible and nothing like film from a projector. I think most of the problem is that the cameraperson is used to video and does not understand the issue with slow frame rate shooting and has no experience with true film. The NX5U has setups for various cinegamma that you can try and also modify yourself. The frame rate is up to you to choose. 1080i and 720p60 have the same exposure rate its just that one records the full frame and the other just a field each 1/60sec. A few people I know have a DSLR as well just for the shallow depth of field dreamy shots if needed. Makes a nice contrast if you like that sort of thing. I will upgrade my family camera now a XR500 to the new CX700 when they come out and then I will be able to shoot 1080P60. IF Sony come out with a NX6 with 1080P60 I will get that too as I like smooth motion and would love to get full HD progressive. I shoot interlace with my NX5U as all the smaller Sony cams also used are interlace only. Ron Evans

January 24th, 2011, 08:50 AM	#4
Mark A. Foley Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bonaire, Ga. Posts: 356	Have you ever posted something and later realized that was stupid (not really stupid).... SInce I never had the varioous options before, it was a very simpple choice for me with the FX1...but now with the NX5 I do have more...but that doesn't mean I have to use all of them... I do like allot of what I see (temporal resolution) with shooting at 720/60P and simply choose in post what look I want :-)

January 24th, 2011, 12:04 PM	#5
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Hi Mark I too moved from an FX1 that I still have, but it was not looking as good as the SR11 or certainly the XR500 AVCHD cams which is why I got the NX5U. At first I was a little disappointed in the NX5U as it didn't seem to be as good as the XR500. Sent back to Sony and eventually got the lens unit replaced and it is now reasonable. I now take a lot of care with focusing and really wish it had the spot focus of the consumer cameras and was as quick focusing. My projects are theatre shoots so camera is always in full manual but I liked to use the push focus to get close before fine tuning and now I just don't bother as it is just as quick to use the expanded focus/peaking to get in focus. Things I like over the FX1 are the long record times with the FMU ( no tapes to worry about) and the better audio control. Ron Evans