What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? at DVinfo.net

Eric Kruis · November 27th, 2011, 08:01 PM

I haven't been able to get a satisfactory DVD render out of Sony Vegas Pro yet. Most of the stuff I shoot involves lots of motion and I get lots of flickering, moire, stepping, etc. I am not a broadcast engineer but I find I have learned much more technical information than I ever thought was involved in shooting HD. (I live in NTSC land).

I was wondering what other NX70 shooters are using and have you had any luck putting out sharp good looking dvd's? There are still many end viewers out there who don't have BluRay and want to watch DVD.

The original footage coming out of my camera is beautiful, but as soon as the picture gets downrezed to SD it looks brutal. Maybe you guys are using Macs. I read a review on the B&H website and one chap says you need a Mac to edit NX70 footage. I hope that ain't true...

Eric

Matt Sharp · November 28th, 2011, 12:09 AM

I render the edited video at 1080p60 with Vegas, then use DVD Architect to downscale it to make the DVD project and downscale to SD.

Mike Beckett · November 28th, 2011, 02:39 AM

I use Premiere Pro CS5. The footage is ingested directly from the MTS files and edited without any issues. I sometimes use Cineform if I really want the best quality.

For DVD, I export from Premiere at HD resolution as a Cineform file, and use Pegasys TMPGEnc Authoring Works to build the DVD, it seems to do a pretty good job. I only use the Cineform export here to save space, you could use any HD format you want, even uncompressed files if disk space isn't a problem.

Ron Evans · November 28th, 2011, 08:17 AM

All my cameras are AVCHD, NX5U, CX700, XR500, SR11. I edit with Edius 6 ( also have Vegas and CS5.5) I always edit with native files, export a HQ fine file ( Edius alternate to Cineform file) and let TMPGenc do the downscaling and encoding for SD DVD. I then author in DVDA. TMPGenc is by far the best downconverter/encoder I have tried. Neither Vegas, DVDA or CS5.5 are close. Using VDUB or the latest version of Edius is close for short programs that are able to use CBR but when the programs get long ( like 2 hours) TMPGenc 2 pass VBR is good. Latest version is TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 .

Ron Evans

Eric Kruis · November 28th, 2011, 11:20 AM

Interesting to see what others using to edit.

Question for Ron Evans.

My current workflow is edit in Vegas in avchd (mts) native files. Then render to mainconcept mpg2, and import into DVDA. Results are poor. The final authoured dvd looks badly.

How could I incorporate a program like TMPGenc into my workflow? Could I edit natively, then render the entire timeline into TMPGenc? In other words, can you use TMPGenc as a plug-in to Vegas? Would TMPGenc show up as one of the templates in SVP?

Thanks!

Eric

Ron Evans · November 28th, 2011, 12:15 PM

TMPGenc does not have a plugin so has to be used stand alone. There is a plugin for Edius but lacks lots of the filters so the stand alone is the best choice. Not sure what version of Vegas you have but assuming you have your project settings for Double NTSC ( 59.94 that would be 60P ) I would render as a Sony YUV avi file 1920x1080 modifying the parameters to double NTSC ( 59.94 ). If you were using 60i then the normal 1920x1080 presets would be correct. File will be bigger than if you used Cineform or Canopus HQ but would be a true HD file for TMPGenc to use. TMPGenc can then use this to downconvert and encode for SD DVD. I think here is a 14 day trial of TMPGenc T5.

Ron Evans

Eric Kruis · November 28th, 2011, 01:17 PM

Thanks Ron,

During the next few days I am going to try the TMPG trial and give it a go. I'll use the settings you mentioned in your post. My version of SVP is 9.0e.

Earlier today I rendered to Sony AVC, I assume this finished file could be imported in TMPG and rendered to mpg2 for DVDA to use? I assume DVDA won't make a mess of it and re-render?

Eric

Ron Evans · November 28th, 2011, 01:28 PM

Sony AVC has a limited bit rate so will be lower quality than your original. I think in 9.0e the max bit rate for Sony AVC is 16Mbps and I assume your original may be 60P at 28Mbps. That is why I suggested Sony YUV AVI file. Output of either file from TMPGenc will go into DVDA as long as you make sure the audio specs are the same.

Ron Evans

Paul Wood · November 28th, 2011, 02:25 PM

I hate to be the exception so far, but I am using FCPX on Mac - I previously used FCE.
All my cameras are also Sony AVCHD, and I have no problems editing or outputing to DVD, with no abnormal quality issues.
I transcode everything to ProRes 422 on import directly in FCP, except for 50p footage, where I use Clipwrap to convert to ProRes, as FCP will not yet accept 50/60p imports, although it will edit OK at 50p once imported.
I´m also late Mac convert from Windows, and have to say am finding it great experience with no hassle at all.

Ron Evans · November 28th, 2011, 03:43 PM

The differences in quality are in the downscaling from HD to SD and until one sees the comparison side by side it is difficult to comment on differences. The first difference most people notice is of course comparing the original video to the SD DVD. This will never compare unfortunately !!! Then the task is to find the best downscaling and encoding for the length of program on the DVD. For short programs the encode is not critical as this can be CBR so the comparison is the downscaling. For long programs , 2 hours or so, then the encoding is also critical needing good multipass VBR to get the most out of the available bandwidth.

I am happy with my approach and the differences between the Bluray and SD DVD on my 42" 240Hz Sony LCD played from an upscaling Bluray player are noticeable but minor. My wife can only see them when I point out fine detail in coloured areas etc. She is just as happy with the SD DVD.

Ron Evans

Eric Kruis · November 28th, 2011, 09:17 PM

The problem I am having is the DVD's rendered from original AVCHD footage look far worse than if I had just shot with my old 3CCD miniDV camera. Static landscape shots look okay, but as soon as there is movement in a scene it looks bad.

Maybe next time I will try a Mac. But at least with editing/authoring dvds in SD, I have had no problems working with a PC.

Eric Kruis · November 28th, 2011, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Beckett

I use Premiere Pro CS5. The footage is ingested directly from the MTS files and edited without any issues. I sometimes use Cineform if I really want the best quality.

For DVD, I export from Premiere at HD resolution as a Cineform file, and use Pegasys TMPGEnc Authoring Works to build the DVD, it seems to do a pretty good job. I only use the Cineform export here to save space, you could use any HD format you want, even uncompressed files if disk space isn't a problem.

Mike,

I used to use Adobe Premiere, and I loved it. It came bundled with a Pinnacle DV500 I bought back in 2001. The included Adobe software was worth more than the Pinnacle hardware! When it came time to buy a new computer and NLE a couple of years ago, I decided to give Vegas a try. Premiere was significantly more expensive.

Jack Zhang · November 28th, 2011, 09:58 PM

Try changing your project settings to NTSC DV Anamorphic and disable resampling on all your clips. Progressive to Interlace will always ghost/flicker/etc if smart resampling is turned on.

Ron Evans · November 28th, 2011, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Kruis

The problem I am having is the DVD's rendered from original AVCHD footage look far worse than if I had just shot with my old 3CCD miniDV camera. Static landscape shots look okay, but as soon as there is movement in a scene it looks bad.

Maybe next time I will try a Mac. But at least with editing/authoring dvds in SD, I have had no problems working with a PC.

It`s not the PC its the downscaling. That is why you had no problems in SD. Vegas and Premiere don`t cut it compared to using VDUB or TMPGenc. The downscaling sets the base for the MPEG2 encode for the DVD so if the base is poor the MPEG2 encode makes it worse. VDUB and TMPGenc need the best possible HD output to work with so output from Vegas needs to be the highest you can get. Sony AVC is not it. Any of the lossless or close to lossless codecs is needed to get the best results. Once you have a good downscaled file then it will be just like you had with SD.

You can test the downscale and encode directly within TMPGenc T5 so that you can see the difference first editing in Vegas has on the result. T5 will take your source file and can edit and encode directly, no need for Vegas for the test or at all if the edit is simple.

Ron Evans

Eric Kruis · November 29th, 2011, 02:49 PM

Ron,

Just to be clear my workflow would go like this...

Shoot footage -I shoot 1920*1080 60i 16mps
Import native footage into SVP (m2ts).
Edit project normally using original (m2ts) footage
Render timeline when completed using Sony YUV avi parameters.
Then import into TMPGenc, creating an MPG2 for DVDA
Open up DVDA and begin authoring DVD.

Sorry if my questions seem redundant but I just want to make sure I am following things correctly.

Thanks!

November 27th, 2011, 08:01 PM	#1
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? I haven't been able to get a satisfactory DVD render out of Sony Vegas Pro yet. Most of the stuff I shoot involves lots of motion and I get lots of flickering, moire, stepping, etc. I am not a broadcast engineer but I find I have learned much more technical information than I ever thought was involved in shooting HD. (I live in NTSC land). I was wondering what other NX70 shooters are using and have you had any luck putting out sharp good looking dvd's? There are still many end viewers out there who don't have BluRay and want to watch DVD. The original footage coming out of my camera is beautiful, but as soon as the picture gets downrezed to SD it looks brutal. Maybe you guys are using Macs. I read a review on the B&H website and one chap says you need a Mac to edit NX70 footage. I hope that ain't true... Eric

November 28th, 2011, 12:09 AM	#2
Matt Sharp Major Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Northridge, CA Posts: 280	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? I render the edited video at 1080p60 with Vegas, then use DVD Architect to downscale it to make the DVD project and downscale to SD. Last edited by Matt Sharp; November 28th, 2011 at 01:58 AM.

November 28th, 2011, 02:39 AM	#3
Mike Beckett Trustee Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Antrim, Northern Ireland Posts: 1,569	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? I use Premiere Pro CS5. The footage is ingested directly from the MTS files and edited without any issues. I sometimes use Cineform if I really want the best quality. For DVD, I export from Premiere at HD resolution as a Cineform file, and use Pegasys TMPGEnc Authoring Works to build the DVD, it seems to do a pretty good job. I only use the Cineform export here to save space, you could use any HD format you want, even uncompressed files if disk space isn't a problem.

November 28th, 2011, 08:17 AM	#4
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? All my cameras are AVCHD, NX5U, CX700, XR500, SR11. I edit with Edius 6 ( also have Vegas and CS5.5) I always edit with native files, export a HQ fine file ( Edius alternate to Cineform file) and let TMPGenc do the downscaling and encoding for SD DVD. I then author in DVDA. TMPGenc is by far the best downconverter/encoder I have tried. Neither Vegas, DVDA or CS5.5 are close. Using VDUB or the latest version of Edius is close for short programs that are able to use CBR but when the programs get long ( like 2 hours) TMPGenc 2 pass VBR is good. Latest version is TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 . Ron Evans

November 28th, 2011, 11:20 AM	#5
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? Interesting to see what others using to edit. Question for Ron Evans. My current workflow is edit in Vegas in avchd (mts) native files. Then render to mainconcept mpg2, and import into DVDA. Results are poor. The final authoured dvd looks badly. How could I incorporate a program like TMPGenc into my workflow? Could I edit natively, then render the entire timeline into TMPGenc? In other words, can you use TMPGenc as a plug-in to Vegas? Would TMPGenc show up as one of the templates in SVP? Thanks! Eric

November 28th, 2011, 12:15 PM	#6
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? TMPGenc does not have a plugin so has to be used stand alone. There is a plugin for Edius but lacks lots of the filters so the stand alone is the best choice. Not sure what version of Vegas you have but assuming you have your project settings for Double NTSC ( 59.94 that would be 60P ) I would render as a Sony YUV avi file 1920x1080 modifying the parameters to double NTSC ( 59.94 ). If you were using 60i then the normal 1920x1080 presets would be correct. File will be bigger than if you used Cineform or Canopus HQ but would be a true HD file for TMPGenc to use. TMPGenc can then use this to downconvert and encode for SD DVD. I think here is a 14 day trial of TMPGenc T5. Ron Evans

November 28th, 2011, 01:17 PM	#7
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? Thanks Ron, During the next few days I am going to try the TMPG trial and give it a go. I'll use the settings you mentioned in your post. My version of SVP is 9.0e. Earlier today I rendered to Sony AVC, I assume this finished file could be imported in TMPG and rendered to mpg2 for DVDA to use? I assume DVDA won't make a mess of it and re-render? Eric

November 28th, 2011, 01:28 PM	#8
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? Sony AVC has a limited bit rate so will be lower quality than your original. I think in 9.0e the max bit rate for Sony AVC is 16Mbps and I assume your original may be 60P at 28Mbps. That is why I suggested Sony YUV AVI file. Output of either file from TMPGenc will go into DVDA as long as you make sure the audio specs are the same. Ron Evans

November 28th, 2011, 02:25 PM	#9
Paul Wood Major Player Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 485	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? I hate to be the exception so far, but I am using FCPX on Mac - I previously used FCE. All my cameras are also Sony AVCHD, and I have no problems editing or outputing to DVD, with no abnormal quality issues. I transcode everything to ProRes 422 on import directly in FCP, except for 50p footage, where I use Clipwrap to convert to ProRes, as FCP will not yet accept 50/60p imports, although it will edit OK at 50p once imported. I´m also late Mac convert from Windows, and have to say am finding it great experience with no hassle at all.

November 28th, 2011, 03:43 PM	#10
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? The differences in quality are in the downscaling from HD to SD and until one sees the comparison side by side it is difficult to comment on differences. The first difference most people notice is of course comparing the original video to the SD DVD. This will never compare unfortunately !!! Then the task is to find the best downscaling and encoding for the length of program on the DVD. For short programs the encode is not critical as this can be CBR so the comparison is the downscaling. For long programs , 2 hours or so, then the encoding is also critical needing good multipass VBR to get the most out of the available bandwidth. I am happy with my approach and the differences between the Bluray and SD DVD on my 42" 240Hz Sony LCD played from an upscaling Bluray player are noticeable but minor. My wife can only see them when I point out fine detail in coloured areas etc. She is just as happy with the SD DVD. Ron Evans

November 28th, 2011, 09:17 PM	#11
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? The problem I am having is the DVD's rendered from original AVCHD footage look far worse than if I had just shot with my old 3CCD miniDV camera. Static landscape shots look okay, but as soon as there is movement in a scene it looks bad. Maybe next time I will try a Mac. But at least with editing/authoring dvds in SD, I have had no problems working with a PC.

November 28th, 2011, 09:58 PM	#13
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? Try changing your project settings to NTSC DV Anamorphic and disable resampling on all your clips. Progressive to Interlace will always ghost/flicker/etc if smart resampling is turned on.

November 29th, 2011, 02:49 PM	#15
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	Re: What NLE's are NX70 shooters using? Ron, Just to be clear my workflow would go like this... Shoot footage -I shoot 19201080 60i 16mps Import* native footage into SVP (m2ts). Edit project normally using original (m2ts) footage Render timeline when completed using Sony YUV avi parameters. Then import into TMPGenc, creating an MPG2 for DVDA Open up DVDA and begin authoring DVD. Sorry if my questions seem redundant but I just want to make sure I am following things correctly. Thanks!