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Sony NXCAM NEX-FS100 CineAlta
An interchangeable lens AVCHD camcorder using E-Mount lenses.


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Old April 20th, 2011, 04:35 AM   #16
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Re: Petition to Sony

If Sony asked me what I want as an indie film maker then I would ask for.

A box with the new S35 chip 10 bit sdi out with HDMI out for a monitor. Full resolution 10 stop camera with gamma curves peaking zebras ect.. Don't want any clever gimics that cut down resolution but show a nice pic.

Even though it would be nice I don't need an LCD just a socket to plug one in or ND filters even a crappy mic will do.

But I'm not going to get that am I.

After years of manufacturers holding technology back, new companies have sprung up to fill in the gaps already the camera manufacturers are losing market share to entreprenuers making cameras recording devices monitors film adapters and all kinds of add ons that fill in the gap But manufacturers are determined to keep the markets separate for the professionals who are happy to pay a premium to keep the masses out and the status quo goes on. Rocky waters ahead for them then. Specially if Jim Jannard really fulfills his objectives.

Wonder how soon it will be before you can build your own from off the shelf parts anyway. China?.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 01:12 AM   #17
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Re: Petition to Sony

Once Sony and its XBR built-in Japan TVs were king. Then Sony image quality fell and Toshiba got the great reviews. Once folks realized that others could build great TVs -- the magic of the Sony name was gone. When HDTVs started to be sold, things got worse for Sony as Samsung began outselling them with a "as good as Sony" picture. Then from nowhere Vizeo started outselling both of them. That's not to say their image quality was better, but to say that the Chinese went from a silent builder of products for the Japanese to active designers. Same with HTC.

I see Japan becoming irrelevant in the world of electronics. American companies like Apple and RED will design products that are better than what Japan will design. (That's not say the govt. backed research labs in Japan will not look further into the future than will American companies.) And then the products will be built just as cheaply as the Japanese can in China.

At the same time, the Chinese will begin designing their own products. Sometimes only for domestic consumption, sometimes for third-world countries, and the best of them designing for the USA and Europe. Right now Sony has a great semiconductor facility. It can build a sensor chip no one else can and keep it to itself -- or sell it to Nikon and/or JVC. But, there is no reason to believe that Chinese companies will not develop their own labs. Once CMOS imaging chips become no more special than CPU or GPU chips -- which is the reason CMOS is so attractive -- then any "camera" company will have access to sensors. At that point, it's design and marketing that create winners.

RED has shown that it is possible to design products that match what shooters want. Nothing is "held back." It has also shown it is very good at free marketing. And, slowly it is working-out how to implement on its goals.

There is another problem facing the "old" electronics companies. What happens if the things they are good at become irrelevant. The obvious is downloading and streaming video. If that kills BD, there goes a business that started with magnetic tape. Innovations that are game changers continue to come from the USA. (The F65 is a very expensive response to RED.)
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Old April 21st, 2011, 09:09 AM   #18
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Re: Petition to Sony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
Innovations that are game changers continue to come from the USA. (The F65 is a very expensive response to RED.)
The F65 is a lot more than a response to RED. It uses an almost opposite philosophy to RED. RED have very cleverly taken off the shelf sensors designed for other imaging applications and adapted them to create a high quality camera(s) that they market as 4k, but in reality produces an image that is sub 4k resolution. RED are to be congratulated for their clever marketing and for producing an outstanding camera system at a never before seen price, but it's not without it's issues which is why IMHO the market is very often still using alternatives that often cost a lot more.

The F65 uses a sensor that is capable of producing an 8k image, a sensor designed from the ground up for cinematography applications. The 12bit raw sensor data is recorded and from that a 4k resolution (or 2k or HD) image is produced. The images contain an incredible level of detail without the need for any enhancement such as detail correction. There is also minimal noise and grain and dynamic range is said to be as good as film. It is a true 4k system without any compromises. The F65 is a game changer as it has the potential to offer image quality that is superior to 35mm film.

Of course at this level the big issue will be lenses as most PL glass does not have high enough resolution for a full 4k system let alone 8k.

Game changers continue to come from the Far East. The Canon 5D is a game changer, The EX1 was another, as will be the FS-100 IMHO. It's easy to forget that while the designers at Apple etc might well create amazing devices with innovative form or function, the building blocks inside those devices, the semiconductors etc are still more often than not designed elsewhere.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 09:18 AM   #19
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Re: Petition to Sony

RED may argue about using the off the shelf sensors bit, although I gather their latest sensors are made in Israel.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 09:39 AM   #20
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Re: Petition to Sony

As I understand it the RED sensors were developed for Israeli military applications which is one of the reasons why there is so much secrecy around the supplier of the sensors, but that could be incorrect information, I have no way of verifying it. I doubt very much that a company such as RED could afford to develop their own unique sensor. Sensor development is hugely expensive compared to most other electronics these days, where the common practice is to take off the shelf FPGA's and similar and simply program them to do what you need. If you are making something in very large numbers then the development costs are more bearable, but for the kinds of numbers that RED ships I just don't believe it would make financial sense. The sensor in the Arri Alexa is a customised Cypress sensor. The use of off the shelf sensors is not necessarily a bad thing but is quite different to a ground up, application specific design.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 10:19 AM   #21
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Re: Petition to Sony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
I doubt very much that a company such as RED could afford to develop their own unique sensor.
I have to to disagree. With a self-made billionaire at the helm, RED
brings nearly limitless financial resources to bear. The company is
not publicly traded and isn't monetarily beholden to anyone except
the whim of its owner, who has a proven track record of financial
success. Money is the *least* of RED's problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
If you are making something in very large numbers then the development costs are more bearable, but for the kinds of numbers that RED ships I just don't believe it would make financial sense.
And yet RED has already shipped more UHD cameras than all other
manufacturers combined (something like 7,000+ units), and is poised
to do that again with their next model. Perhaps those aren't very large
numbers, but clearly they are making, selling and shipping in quantities
that far exceed the output of similar products by other manufacturers.

Very sorry I missed seeing you at NAB, by the way -- one of my very
few regrets about this year's show.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 11:04 AM   #22
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Re: Petition to Sony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
As I understand it the RED sensors were developed for Israeli military applications which is one of the reasons why there is so much secrecy around the supplier of the sensors, but that could be incorrect information, I have no way of verifying it.
I imagine there was collaboration with a sensor manufacturer, whether or not it was/is stand alone or customised based on military technology eg photo reconnaissance applications, high speed photography who knows.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 01:52 PM   #23
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Re: Petition to Sony

Hi Chris, yes missed hooking up at NAB, it was a very busy show for me.

You have a very good point about RED's unusual financial situation, so I guess all bets may be off.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 04:42 PM   #24
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Re: Petition to Sony

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
The F65 is a lot more than a response to RED.

Game changers continue to come from the Far East. The Canon 5D is a game changer.

Nevertheless, the F65 follows by several years the RED ONE. In that amount of time, Sony had to come up something more than could be done inside the RED ONE. They called on the semiconductor division to give them an edge by creating "true" 4K. Despite everyone else, according to Sony, offering "not true" 4K the F65 may have little impact because it is like the jet packs we all thought we would have when we saw them demoed decades ago. Think of the F65 as an "image" product created to show the world Sony "still can."

I think of the F65 as I do GM's Volt. Clearly the best, yet not going save GM -- whose stock -- even with the Japanese worried about building cars -- is much lower than when they went public.


I think Juan showed quite well that the 5D is a terrible example of a video shooting device. In my iBook on DSLRs I talked about how row skipping is a horrible way to create video. Allan Roberts, after looking at the 5D aliasing concluded it should not be used for video. The introduction of the VW bug was gamechanger in the same way. It opened an option, but was a poor car.

A "true" gamechanger not only opens doors it is also a great product. The first iPad is a perfect example. And, when you look for these kinds of great products/services you look at Apple, Amazon, eBay, Facebook, Google, Intel, Netflix, and all the bio-tek companies. None of these come Japan. Sony has failed at everything related to phones and the Internet. I've bought my last VAIO laptop years ago.

If you have teenagers -- see if they use anything from Japan beyond the PS and Wii. But, Apple is working on this issue too. SEE BELOW:

Earlier today 9to5Mac reported ... that iPhone 4s outfitted with Apple's A5 chips have been seeded with developers at certain "high-level gaming outfits."

The graphics capabilities of the A5 are outstanding, with a graphics processing unit touted as nine times as powerful as the one in the original iPad.

Apparently, Apple's reasoning for seeding the developers with the high-powered hardware is that the company wishes to make speedy game performance a selling point for the next-generation device. What better way to do that than to take a few best-selling, graphics-intensive games and supercharge them prior to the launch of the iPhone 5?
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; April 21st, 2011 at 11:20 PM.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 05:39 PM   #25
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Re: Petition to Sony

With regard to the comparison of Sony and RED as camera makers, I think one of the biggest obstacles to innovation is the weight of the business itself. RED is no longer a fledgling company - it has created enough business gravity that it now has to deal with the beginnings of the same bureaucracy that Sony, Panasonic, Canon, and JVC struggle with. Not that it has nearly an equal load, but the success of the RED One is as much a challenge to overcome as it is a benefit.

Money is a challenge for all of these companies, and even if they claim that obsolescence is not a factor - I would disagree. Technology is a slippery thing, and anyone who claims to have "bottled" innovation is probably selling some snake oil as well.

Its one thing to sell and support 7,000 cameras. It is something entirely different to sell and support 70,000 or more. Scarlet has the potential to break RED's back if the business end is not rev'd up to handle the mechanics involved with those numbers. And with no help from a dealer network...

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Old April 26th, 2011, 01:16 AM   #26
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Re: Petition to Sony

I believe the world will prove to be big enough to support Sony, Red and Arri just fine. Each company has its strengths and weaknesses. It has become clear to me that no one manufacturer is going to walk away with the high end market.
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