FS100 and F3, Alister's Video

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

This thread is getting weird. People are complaining the FS100 isn't comparable to a RED or a 35mm film camera - no kidding! It is what it is - buy it, or don't - then, please, move on.

A thread on any camera is not confined to those who love it. In fact, I've never seen a thread on any product that didn't include many many negative posts.

I think my original judgement made when Sony released the full description of the FS100 on Sunday night of NAB week have been fully vindicated. It's simply not as good as CAMCORDER as the AF100.

Moreover, it's really not worth my time to deal with either the FS100 or AF100 because both will be non-starters when Scarlet ships. And, if Sony does even a reasonable job with a re-spin of the VG10, It will be just as good as the FS100 at half the price -- for those of us that prefer 30p over 24p.

But, I'll hang until Phillips report is out.

[Asif Khan]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

This thread is getting weird. People are complaining the FS100 isn't comparable to a RED or a 35mm film camera - no kidding!
.

Nah, it's mostly just one poster who said he won't even visit Sony NAB stand because nothing is there, but he spends all time here on Sony forum about FS100 and F3. Just ignore him.

FS100 is going to be a huge seller among general consumers.

[David C. Williams]

Originally Posted by Asif Khan

Nah, it's mostly just one poster who said he won't even visit Sony NAB stand because nothing is there, but he spends all time here on Sony forum about FS100 and F3. Just ignore him.

FS100 is going to be a huge seller among general consumers.

I agree with all of the above.

[Steve Connor]

An "ignore posts" button for certain users would be a great addition to the forum, I'm getting fed up with the stalkers of doom around here

[Alister Chapman]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Moreover, it's really not worth my time to deal with either the FS100 or AF100 because both will be non-starters when Scarlet ships.

Guess you don't have any projects in the foreseeable future then. I'm sure Scarlet will be good, but when??? I can't put my life on hold waiting for Scarlet. Red's marketing is very clever. Lets announce an incredible low cost camera, available very soon. That's stops people buying the competition. That was in April 2008! then build up their hopes of an imminent release (NAB 09) only to dash them again with further delays, then as customers start to walk away build up hopes again with news of working prototypes (NAB 10), only to delay again and thus it continues. Now we hear there are lens problems for the fixed lens version. If I had held off since 2008 I'd have gone bust by now.

Is the FS100 perfect, no it is not. Is it a great camera for the money, yes IMHO it is. The AF101 may have built in ND's, but it doesn't have a Super35mm sensor and you only have to look at Phil Blooms side by side to see how big a difference that makes, foreshortening the image and increasing DoF. Can you add ND's to the FS100? Yes you can (and there will be E-Mount to Nikon (an possibly PL) adapters with 4 ND positions behind the lens coming). Can you change the sensor in the AF101? Very fast, very wide lenses are expensive.

[Mike Marriage]

I feel both Steve and Ben's frustration.

These cameras are all just tools that most of us here use to make a living. Firstly I want that tool to be reliable, usable and ergonomic. Little flaws become very irritating when in daily use under tight time pressures.

Sony have done the leg work designing a great sensor and all the internal electronics, why is it so hard to design an ergonomic casing? Companies, including Sony have been doing that for years! I have an old Video 8 camcorder from the 90s which has superior ergonomics than the F3 (and by the looks of it the FS100 although I will reserve judgment until I get hold of one). Why are ergonomics no longer deemed important? Should we complain about this? Of course we should! Otherwise nothing will change. These are professional tools and should be designed to meet professional requirements.

If you are comfortable using workarounds no one is stopping you from doing that but these boards are the perfect place to vent frustrations so that the manufacturers can read them, I know many do. JVC appear to be the ones nailing the ergonomics at the moment but lag behind on the sensor technology.

I'd love to see an affordable large sensor camera designed from the outside in. A little like a budget Alexa. That would sell by the thousand. Until then I'm sticking with my very ergonomic PMW350 and hiring if the job requires the oh-so-fashionable "shallow depth of field."

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

I can't put my life on hold waiting for Scarlet. Red's marketing is very clever. Lets announce an incredible low cost camera, available very soon. That's stops people buying the competition. That was in April 2008.

I second Alister on that. If Steve considers Sony's marketing BS, how should we call the Red's marketing of Scarlet?

Just compare that to what Convergent Design have done recently: while constantly supporting and perfecting their nanoFlash, they were working silently on the Gemini... No hype, no marketing declarations intended to stop people from buying the competing Aja's Ninja's etc. Until the revolutionary product is almost ready, and will hit the market soon after the announcement!

[Glen Vandermolen]

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

I feel both Steve and Ben's frustration.

These cameras are all just tools that most of us here use to make a living. Firstly I want that tool to be reliable, usable and ergonomic. Little flaws become very irritating when in daily use under tight time pressures.

Sony have done the leg work designing a great sensor and all the internal electronics, why is it so hard to design an ergonomic casing? Companies, including Sony have been doing that for years! I have an old Video 8 camcorder from the 90s which has superior ergonomics than the F3 (and by the looks of it the FS100 although I will reserve judgment until I get hold of one). Why are ergonomics no longer deemed important? Should we complain about this? Of course we should! Otherwise nothing will change. These are professional tools and should be designed to meet professional requirements.

If you are comfortable using workarounds no one is stopping you from doing that but these boards are the perfect place to vent frustrations so that the manufacturers can read them, I know many do. JVC appear to be the ones nailing the ergonomics at the moment but lag behind on the sensor technology.

I'd love to see an affordable large sensor camera designed from the outside in. A little like a budget Alexa. That would sell by the thousand. Until then I'm sticking with my very ergonomic PMW350 and hiring if the job requires the oh-so-fashionable "shallow depth of field."

Who says the casing isn't ergonomic? You? I say it is. Who's correct? It's all subjective. You may hate the design, I may love it. That goes to the "you can't design one camera to do it all." You certainly can't design one that makes everybody happy.

Again, bitching about it isn't going to change it - it will be manufactured and shipped exactly as you see it. Is that not good enough for you? Then move on to the next camera. It's really that simple.
Plus, it would help if you actually had time with the camera before you critiqued it. That's why I trust the opinions of Alister, Doug, Phil, Dennie and Nigel - they've worked with the FS100. I can ask them questions and they'd have an informed opinion.

Speaking of JVC, I didn't buy the new HM700 because I wanted a camera with full raster 1920x1080 chips. But I don't hang around the JVC forums whining about it. What good would that do? I recognized the features (or lack thereof) the camera had, and moved on.

Or, let's turn this around - how about that Alexa? What a disaster! Sure, it takes great video, but my god! that price! If only Arri sold it for $10,000 instead of $80,000, they'd have my business. They could sell so many more if only they dropped the price. What a marketing disaster that camera is. And the weight and complexity - what was Arri thinking? And now Sony has a camera that does 8K! Arri is so screwed! (Of course, I've never actually held one or worked with one, but I read about it on the internet.)

It all depends on your point of view, my friend. Either a camera is a good production tool for you, or it isn't. If it isn't, well....

[Brian Drysdale]

The Alexa is aimed at a demanding market, camera people who tend to operate in certain ways because it works. It's being used on many high end TV dramas, but people are also using it on documentaries. If it continues to do well depend on how well the competition holds up to working in that environment. The high costs tend to indicate that they're going for a smaller market, with demands on quality control and build. It's not for everyone, but the targeted people seem to be liking it.

[Monday Isa]

Like I told Doug, I really wish Juan Martinez didn't tell me the FS100 will be shipping in late July. I had seen on a UK vendor a May shipping date. I figured I'd wait till then to pick up the camera. Then I'm hearing as late as August for release. So I found a good deal on the AF100. I'm not necessarily stuck with the AF100 but I'd lose money selling it off right now and some extra usability that is really nice to have. There's no way I want to go back to using a DSLR while trying to switch to Sony. To hard to switch out in the middle of my event season. I'll have to join the group at the end of the year. Sigh, Thanks Juan Martinez. A potential FS100 user that has to buy next year during the slow season.

[Jon Braeley]

Like many others I have been waiting for Scarlet. In fact, the Epic-S would get my money right now. But it's not available and neither is Scarlet. I think it will be another 12 months before the new Reds trickle down to the general populace! Red have had a working Scarlet model for six months now, yet there is no footage. That is very strange. As a doc maker the Scarlet would suit me perfectly.

BUT THE FS-100 is here .... now! Abelcine just took my deposit which I would love to have given Red.

Even though I plan my projects up to a year away I have to know the camera I need will be in my hands!

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

.
Plus, it would help if you actually had time with the camera before you critiqued it. That's why I trust the opinions of Alister, Doug, Phil, Dennie and Nigel - they've worked with the FS100. I can ask them questions and they'd have an informed opinion.

Glen, please reread my post, I specifically point out that I'm not judging the FS100 until I've used it. I have used the F3.

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

Who says the casing isn't ergonomic? You? I say it is. Who's correct? It's all subjective. You may hate the design, I may love it. That goes to the "you can't design one camera to do it all." You certainly can't design one that makes everybody happy.

Ergonomics are subjective to some extent and yes, one camera will not suit every job but I am yet to meet a professional cameraman who thinks the F3 is a good ergonomic design. Absolute essentials like a good VF support have been left for third parties to salvage. How do you hand hold it without adding on 3rd partly accessories?

My comment about a budget Alexa is perfectly fair. I see no reason why F3/FS100 internals could not fit in a body similar to the JVC HM750 without adding more than a few K to the cost. That's what I'd like to see. If you are happy with the cameras that are already out then buy one and let me get on with my moaning :)

Now please can we stop the personal attacks, it's only a camera.

[Glen Vandermolen]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

The Alexa is aimed at a demanding market, camera people who tend to operate in certain ways because it works. It's being used on many high end TV dramas, but people are also using it on documentaries. If it continues to do well depend on how well the competition holds up to working in that environment. The high costs tend to indicate that they're going for a smaller market, with demands on quality control and build. It's not for everyone, but the targeted people seem to be liking it.

Brian, I was being sarcastic to prove a point.
Obviously the Alexa is a very good camera. My point was, even as good as it is, you can find faults with the camera. And you are correct, it fits into a small niche, but it's a success at filling that niche.
Maybe the FS100 will fill its own niche?

[Brian Drysdale]

I suspected you were, but yes, I'm sure camera crews can find points with the Alexa that could do with improvement.

I expect many people will use the FS100 as a module and come up with their own rig based on 3rd party manufacturers. In some respects, it a looks an easier mechanical base to start from than the F3.

[Glen Vandermolen]

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

Ergonomics are subjective to some extent and yes, one camera will not suit every job but I am yet to meet a professional cameraman who thinks the F3 is a good ergonomic design. Absolute essentials like a good VF support have been left for third parties to salvage. How do you hand hold it without adding on 3rd partly accessories?

My comment about a budget Alexa is perfectly fair. I see no reason why F3/FS100 internals could not fit in a body similar to the JVC HM750 without adding more than a few K to the cost. That's what I'd like to see. If you are happy with the cameras that are already out then buy one and let me get on with my moaning :)

Now please can we stop the personal attacks, it's only a camera.

I trust your judgements on the F3. Again, if the F3 doesn't suit your needs, don't buy it. Or buy it and live with its shortcomings.

I understand you want the handling and form factor of a JVC HM750. I agree, it'd make one heck of a package. But, this is what the FS100 is. Take it or leave it. Then, wait for another manufacturer to build the better camera for you.

There's nothing personal in my "attacks," I don't think. But I do wish some of you will recognize the FS100 for what it is, and not damn it for what it isn't.

As far as moaning about the camera - do you see a subject matter in this website for the AF100? No? Do you know why?
It's because too many trolls came onto the site complaining about a camera they never had even touched. The false info being spewed forth was making the thread unreadable and unmanageable. Therefore, it was shut down.

I don't want this thread to share the same fate. I want this forum to stay open, so we can glean any new info we can on the camera.
If you have any relevant, usable info based upon your hands-on experiences with the FS100, please post your thoughts. Share your experiences with those of us without.
If you have concerns about the camera, voice them. But recognize that most of us have heard it all, and it gets old.

I don't mean to offend, but there's so much whining on this forum that I'm close to just abandoning it. And I really am looking for good, usable info on the FS100, because I am a potential customer.

Mike, my comments aren't directed at you, but to everybody in this forum. I quoted you because it was relevant to my "rant." If I offended you, I do apologise, it certainly is not my intention.