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Sony NXCAM NEX-FS100 CineAlta
An interchangeable lens AVCHD camcorder using E-Mount lenses.


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Old October 26th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #1
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Need pal info by early am

I'm shooting at the Ft lauderdale Boat show this week end and the client wants pal. I normally shoot in the highest quality of 30P. can anyone tell me what the highest res of 25, and 50 are? I assume 25 is like 24...is 5o like 60, or 30?
Never shot the fs100 in pal before.
Thanks
Bruce Yarock
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Old October 27th, 2012, 03:20 AM   #2
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Re: Need pal info by early am

Bruce, copied from the firmware update manual:

[60i]
1080/60p PS 1080/60i FX 1080/60i FH 1080/60i HQ 1080/60i LP 1080/30p FX 1080/30p FH 1080/24p FX 1080/24p FH 720/60p FX 720/60p FH
Shutter speed
[50i]

1080/50p PS 1080/50i FX 1080/50i FH 1080/50i HQ 1080/50i LP 1080/25p FX 1080/25p FH -
720/50p FX 720/50p FH

essentially the same res for NTSC and PAL
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Old October 27th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #3
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Re: Need pal info by early am

Thanks, Paul.
Bruce Yarock
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Old October 28th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #4
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Re: Need pal info by early am

In PAL land we always use frame rates based on multiples of 25, although the old differences between PAL and NTSC don't really exist any longer. I've never used any of the 24, or 29.XX or 30 fps settings, because they're the NTSC land standards. It's actually very easy to not even notice you're working with 'foreign' formats because as long as the picture frame size is correct in the editor, the clips always seem to work. One of my projects from a few years ago I only discovered was done wrong this year, when I noticed the tiny black line top and bottom. Delving back, it was 720 x 480 format, not the PAL DV frame size. When I edited it, I was using a broadcast CRT monitor, which must have hidden the very top and bottom - and I missed it on the screen.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 01:32 PM   #5
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Re: Need pal info by early am

you should not shoot 25p(50i) in USA if you cannot make sure the light will be from controlled equipement.
Professional lighting use hig frequencies (like 400Hz) while regular lighting is using local frequency (60Hz).
The risk is you will get a blinking picture ruining your shots and this is impossible to correct.
the Best bet is to shoot 24p and if needed make it 25p (4% speed increase).
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Old October 28th, 2012, 06:54 PM   #6
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Re: Need pal info by early am

"PAL" really means standard definition, 25 fps interlaced, with a frame size of 720x576.

"High definition PAL" doesn't have any real meaning - though it's often (wrongly) used to mean an HD standard based on 50Hz framerates rather than 60Hz. Which is probably the case here.

And the problem is that even allowing for incorrect terminology, it doesn't have a unique meaning even then. In the 50Hz world, the common HD standards are 1080i/25, 1080p/25 and 720p/50 - which of these is meant by "HD PAL"? See why I don't like the terminolgy? Let's leave talk of PAL in the SD era.

It's really neccessary to get a client to define 1080i/25 or 720p/50 etc specifically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
It's actually very easy to not even notice you're working with 'foreign' formats because as long as the picture frame size is correct in the editor, the clips always seem to work.
That may seem to be the case within the NLE, but on output render it will have to convert framerate (and possibly framesize) to project settings, effectively doing a standard conversion. That's far better than it used to be - and in the 70's needed racks of hardware! - but will inevitably lead to degradation, quite likely a smearing on motion at the least,

Far better to shoot, edit, and output all in the same fundamental system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroud Francois
you should not shoot 25p(50i) in USA if you cannot make sure the light will be from controlled equipement............ the Best bet is to shoot 24p and if needed make it 25p (4% speed increase).
The choice of framerate should be determined by eventual destination of the product. So if intended for Europe or other 50Hz territories it should be based on 25 or 50fps framerates. Shooting at 60Hz based standards can just give problems later on.

It's correct to say that such may give rise to flicker with some light sources (especially fluorescents) - but the way to deal with that is via the camera shutter. Leave the camera set to the project framerate (1080i/25 or whatever) and set the shutter to about 1/60s, then finetune to get rid of flicker.

This used to be a common procedure in the 90's with CRT computer screens which frequently ran at 60Hz, maybe higher.

If the lighting is under your control, then lights with a DC intermediate (like Dedos) can be a good choice to save the problem in the first place.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:13 AM   #7
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Re: Need pal info by early am

I shot it in in 1080/25p fx, which I hope is the highest resolution and hopefully was correct. It was a boat show, , and part was outside, some inside boats, moving around, and a few set up shots. Crazy mixtures of light sources.
Waht I saw through the vf looked good, but today I'll check it on my big sony tv.
Thanks guys for the fee back.
Bruce Yarock.
Bruce Yarock
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Old October 29th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #8
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Re: Need pal info by early am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce S. Yarock View Post
I shot it in in 1080/25p fx, which I hope is the highest resolution and hopefully was correct.
If not correct, it's really down to the client. The alternatives would have been 1080i/25 and 720p/50, and if you are asked for "HD PAL" either of the three is plausible.

Yes, 1080p/25 will be highest resolution, but the disadvantage is the "jerky" rendition of motion ("film look"), the alternatives would have given smoother motion. But it's really down to any client to specify required format properly, and talk of 1080p/25 or whatever - not "PAL".
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Old October 29th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #9
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Re: Need pal info by early am

David,
The client didn't know what they wanted except that it wa supposed to be European standard. I told them what I wa shooting in and they looked at some of the clips throughout the two days and didn't complain.
Hopefully I won't get a "complaining" email in a week or so...
Bruce Yarock
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Old October 29th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #10
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Re: Need pal info by early am

Giroud,
I didn't notice any "flickering"...I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Bruce Yarock
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Old October 29th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #11
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Re: Need pal info by early am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce S. Yarock View Post
David,
The client didn't know what they wanted .......... Hopefully I won't get a "complaining" email in a week or so...
LOL!! If you get the "complaining e-mail" I'll be happy to write the reply for you! ;-) You gave them a "PAL HD standard", as asked for - if it was the wrong one, who's to blame then!?
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Old October 30th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #12
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Re: Need pal info by early am

Thanks , David.
If they're happy, I'll take credit for it. If they complain , I'll blame it on you:)
Bruce
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