Not happy with FS700 ergonomics

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by Matt Davis

Regarding the BMC and Red One, they too are 'modular' - and IMHO the BMC could actually steal the 'Ergonomic Disaster Area' accolade from the FS700...

True! Don't get me started on the BMC! :)

[Jon Springer]

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

I would pay several times the cost of an FS700 for what I want but it doesn't exist yet. Put an F3 in a compact shoulder mount design and I'd be happy. Add in the FS700's frame rates and XDCAM HD & Prores on board and I'd be first in the queue. All of these features exist in current low cost cameras and recorders and could be combined if there was the will to do so.

Mike...I couldn't agree more. I would part with 20K in a New York Second if a true shoulder mounted S35 sensor camera body (with forward orientated EVF) suddenly became available. It would not be that difficult to engineer an Alexa style camera in that price range. Sony et al may perceive a lack of demand from the future of their market base...viz, shooters who have never even used a 'real' camera and therefore do not perceive any advantage in that kind of design.

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Shoulder cameras are not as flexible and have much smaller markets, fewer people buying means higher price. Just build out the FS700 into a shoulder cam if you want that.

There is a great shoulder camera, its called Alexa. If you want prosumer prices you need form factors that work for the prosumer market.

Personally I've been happy with the FS100 form factor, I found very comfortable ways to hold it for handheld and then I can also hold it out around me and at my hip which is a great flexibility to have for getting new angles quickly. I shot a performance the other day where there was no space but i was able to reach my camera into all kinds of places whereas a shouldercam would have been stuck with one shot at one height and wouldve knocked people over if I moved too much.

[Lee Mullen]

Originally Posted by Frank Glencairn

"Warning" treads like that really crack me up.

Then why respond???

[John Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel

Shoulder cameras are not as flexible and have much smaller markets, fewer people buying means higher price. Just build out the FS700 into a shoulder cam if you want that.

There is a great shoulder camera, its called Alexa. If you want prosumer prices you need form factors that work for the prosumer market.

Noah - I think the reason is not cost- Sony have taken their consumer cameras before and whacked them in a prosumer ENG body and sold it for as little as $1200 (Sony DCR-SD1000) (thats about $500 more than the corrresponding palmcorder) - Panasonic have done it as well. More to the point - why would they? The FS700 is targeted at a different market - maybe that will change but it hasn't yet. Regardless of the ergonomics, the FS700 is unique .. and having sold so many units of the FS100 why would Sony suddenly change the design and cannibalise their ENG line of cameras? They'd lose market share in their target market and lose sales of higher end cameras. And it would have substantially delayed the release. There may even be an ENG model in the pipeline pitched at the sort of price bracket that Mike wants but I think it would be at least 12 months away. Those mid range PMW's will be in need of refresh around then..

So I can understand the frustration that Mike (OP) feels (the top mounted viewfinder has to go) - I just can't understand why he ordered one in the first place - because all those negatives are spelt out in a bunch of different reviews. You buy in spite of those things and adapt. To get as far as ordering one and not even taking it out of the shop and trying it in the field...is puzzling.

We've all heard of buyer's remorse - I hope Mike doesn't end up with buyer's envy...

[Frank Glencairn]

LOL I encurage everyone, who is unhappy with the 700 to shoot with a real 35mm film camera and ISO400 film for a week. After that you sure gonna love everything on the FS700.

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

To get as far as ordering one and not even taking it out of the shop and trying it in the field...is puzzling.

John, please re-read what I wrote at the start of the thread. My dealer held the unit for me without commitment so that I could try it for myself. Once I'd had done that, I cancelled the reservation. As I say in my second post, I hope people will try before they buy and not commit to an order without testing the camera for themselves. It was one of the very first units in the UK so it was not possibility to handle a production model prior to that.

The online tests I had read seemed to focus very much on the (impressive) technical aspects rather than the (less impressive) ergonomics.

[Jon Springer]

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

There may even be an ENG model in the pipeline pitched at the sort of price bracket that Mike wants but I think it would be at least 12 months away. Those mid range PMW's will be in need of refresh around then.

Hope so. Apparently the manufacturers do not realize how strong the demand would be for such a camera. I know many DP's who would jump at the chance to buy a large sensor camera housed in a true ENG body (in that sub 20K price range)...especially doc shooters and people who have used Arri SR3's, XD cams, etc. Hell, Arri should seize the opportunity and make a lower tiered version of the Alexa and mop the floor with Red, Sony, Canon et al. I would be there in a second.

[Jon Springer]

Furthermore, I don't think anyone would go to these lengths...



...without a real demand for a large sensor / ENG ergonomic :)

[Alister Chapman]

Let me start by saying that I don't think the FS700's ergonomics are good. However, after spending last weekend doing a mixed tripod/handheld, run and gun shoot I have found it to be quite useable even without any extra add-ons. Yes the hand grip is a way off to one side, so the camera will want to sag to the left. But then I never hand hold a camera with just one hand because I get better stability holding it with both hands. Interestingly I found that having my hands wider apart made the camera more stable and less prone to roll. My biggest gripe is the way the viewfinder swivels when you place any pressure on the monocular. On a tripod the viewfinder tilts down just enough so that I can shoot at more or less eye height, it's not ideal but it's not terrible. For high shots I simply used the camera upside down. While the kit lens isn't one I'm fond of, I did find that it performed really rather well in run and gun. I made good use of the one push autofocus and iris just to get a quick exposure and focus starting point. For some of the slow mo walking shots of pilots walking unto the camera I even used the face tracking AF, which did a better job of pulling focus than me! Is it perfect, no it is not, but I did find the overall package quite effective for run and gun compared to my F3 which did surprise me. Like many my primary reason for the purchase is the Super Slow Mo, but I actually found the kit to be closest thing to an EX1 for R&G that I have come across so far.

Like Matt I'm working on a rig for mine. I'm trying to develop a shoulder mount that incorporates a shoulder pad, Sony VCT quick release mounts front and rear 15mm rails and a viewfinder bracket. I hate using noga arms for viewfinders as these always sag and then you get sloppy horizontals. With the right rig I think the FS700 will become my go to camera for R&G. The F3 will still be the camera of choice where quality is paramount, but the FS700 IQ is remarkably close to the F3.

Don't forget if you do want a 20x zoom on the FS700 you can always use the MTF B4 to E mount adapter kit to stick a traditional 2/3" ENG zoom on it. If anyone wants to know what the quality of the adapter is take a look at the Duran Duran "A Diamond in the Mind" BluRay or youtube clips. The head shots of the lead singer were shot using one of the adapters on an F3 with a 44x Fujinon lens about 200ft from the stage.

Duran Duran - Planet Earth Live (A Diamond In The Mind) ~ 1080p HD - YouTube

[Chris Medico]

Building an ENG style camera body with and S35 imager for that price range isn't the biggest issue. Making a complete package in that price range will be and issue for sure. How much would you be willing to pay for a fully usable kit?

Lets say that camera exists today and consider the potential costs.

Camera body (based on mid level 2/3" ENG cameras, under $20k isn't likely) - $27k
Servo S35 lens such as the upcoming Fujinon 19-90 T2.9 Zoom Lens - $40k
HD viewfinder - $8k

Add the bits such as batteries and other misc stuff to round it out and you will be sitting at a solid $85k.

So with a camera kit in this price range the market is going to be narrow. It won't appeal to the filmmakers that have embraced the smaller and or modular style cameras of late. Not to mention the S35 cameras have better performance in many areas over 1/2 or 2/3" imager gear. That could lead to erosion of other established product lines. It will have a market but will it have one that is sustainable and one that doesn't cause issues with established ENG equipment lines?

I don't see a huge up side here for the vendors. At least not the conventional vendors.

[Jon Springer]

Building an ENG style camera body with and S35 imager for that price range isn't the biggest issue. Making a complete package in that price range will be and issue for sure. How much would you be willing to pay for a fully usable kit?

Lets say that camera exists today and consider the potential costs.

Camera body (based on mid level 2/3" ENG cameras, under $20k isn't likely) - $27k
Servo S35 lens such as the upcoming Fujinon 19-90 T2.9 Zoom Lens - $40k
HD viewfinder - $8k

Add the bits such as batteries and other misc stuff to round it out and you will be sitting at a solid $85k.

Well, the lens / accessory argument is a bit of a straw man, since everyone has to buy a set of usable lenses, batteries, etc. no matter what camera they buy. I was referring to a body and viewfinder for under 20K. And at the risk of just pitting one speculation against the other, I would offer the example of what Panasonic was able to do with the HPX500…i.e. engineer an inexpensive ENG body around an existing sensor and memory technology for under 12K (for the body) and another 2K (for a decent SD viewfinder).

I don’t think it’s such a stretch to suggest that a manufacturer like Sony could build a decent ENG body around their existing Exmor sensor to retail for around 15K, with another 5K for a good HD EVF. Plus, with an ENG form factor as a starting point, you are automatically saving thousands on the economic juggernaut of overpriced 3rd party accessories that are needed just to get these palmcorders, still cameras and plastic bricks to the point of being usable in a real-world ENG scenario.

So with a camera kit in this price range the market is going to be narrow. It won't appeal to the filmmakers that have embraced the smaller and or modular style cameras of late.

Why they have embraced such a difficult form factor is a question worth analyzing, I think. And it's inevitable that some will come to realize the advantages of a better ergonomic. The very fact that Fujinon is making a lens like the Cabrio is evidence that a large sensor ENG configuration is part of that future...with much cheaper versions becoming available on the horizon I bet.

Nearly all the shooters I know lament the ergonomic limitations of their 5D’s, FS100’s and the like. But we have no choice, because producers are demanding the look of these cameras more and more, and then the job of the DP becomes twice as difficult because of the non-professional form factor. It doesn’t have to be that way…or does it?

Not to mention the S35 cameras have better performance in many areas over 1/2 or 2/3" imager gear. That could lead to erosion of other established product lines. It will have a market but will it have one that is sustainable and one that doesn't cause issues with established ENG equipment lines?

How so? I don’t think the HPX500 eroded Panasonic’s higher end offerings at all. In fact, I think that camera actually became a stepping stone to the higher end P2 gear for many shooters.

.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Jon Springer

And at the risk of just pitting one speculation against the other, I would offer the example of what Panasonic was able to do with the HPX500…i.e. engineer an inexpensive ENG body around an existing sensor and memory technology for under 12K (for the body) and another 2K (for a decent SD viewfinder).

Quite so - and the HPX500 isn't alone - the HPX300 from Panasonic? The PMW320 from Sony? And what about the 700 series from JVC? Maybe the latter are a better comparison as they are more comparable size/weight etc to the FS700 - but generally accepted to have far better ergonomics.

I don’t think it’s such a stretch to suggest that a manufacturer like Sony could build a decent ENG body around their existing Exmor sensor .

It's not. The PMW320 is effectively an EX innards in a decent shouldermount form factor - for not that much more than an EX3, relatively. Why couldn't the same be done for the FS700 innards?

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by David Heath

The PMW320 is effectively an EX innards in a decent shouldermount form factor - for not that much more than an EX3, relatively. Why couldn't the same be done for the FS700 innards?

I hope they do that! I think the 320 also has an improved DSP over the EX3 which the FS700 would also benefit from if it could provide a 10 bit output. Sony have already used that camera body design for 3 very successful cameras - PMW 320, 350 and 500.

[Frank Glencairn]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

L
Like Matt I'm working on a rig for mine. I'm trying to develop a shoulder mount that incorporates a shoulder pad, Sony VCT quick release mounts front and rear 15mm rails

That already exists - it's the Tilta rig.
I tried almost everything from (realtive) cheap Indian stuff to Zacuto and I'm most happy with my Tilta setup.

Frank