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Old November 22nd, 2013, 09:51 AM   #61
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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Originally Posted by Darren Levine View Post
i'll hold my judgement till i get it and put it in neutral with contrast dialed down
On the other NEX cams the portrait mode gives most extended DR, but this neutral mode seems to be new so try both.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 02:53 PM   #62
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Parafocal ,zoom, contrast Natural-3,-3,-3 awb
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 07:02 PM   #63
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

I got a mail yesterday that the rx10 was available so I only need to press the order button but both 2 posted videos have not convinced me yet. Still see hotspots, especially with the catvideo and the second portrait video looks alot what my cx730 would do, don't mean that as a bad thing but rather have something that has a dslr kinda look and it's still too video like to me.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 11:50 AM   #64
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Sample video - comparing the Sony RX10, A7R and FS100 » EOSHD.com

Says RX10 compares favorably with FS100. About same detail, and better highlights in RX10, at price of slight less shadow range. OS is supposed to be in the range of the Olympus 5 axis system.

Also AVCHD implementation is good enough that using external recorder does not improve image. he did not test gradability of the two recording codecs.

Hmmm.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 01:17 PM   #65
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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and better highlights in RX10
Think I have said it before but any Info coming from that site I"d take with a grain of salt, there is a article about the rx10 where he is already making some statements about moire, resolution and videoquality in general just based on the fact that he was able to hold the camera in his hands at a store where he looked through the viewfinder and made a few photo's, I guess you always have people that like to shout "first!".

He also doesn't use any charts, just shoots a subject and if you look at the fs100/rx10 example side by side in his video the fs100 seems to be overexposed compared to the rx10, not exactly scientific, although I do like his "real world" images he takes with the camera's I think there is much more to comparing camera's as there are differences in image presets and such that can provide different results, I personally prefer Philip Bloom's reviews, he also doesn't use any charts but at least he makes some pretty impressive videos which do showcase the camera's abilities.

Hopefully more real life videos will start to appear that do show the strong and weak points from the camera.

Last edited by Noa Put; November 23rd, 2013 at 02:14 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 02:48 PM   #66
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Yes, I must say I agree with you regarding ‘that’ site, and while Bloom does publish nice videos I find his ‘reviews’ not particularly helpful. Everything is just lovely with some being lovelier. But his use of soundtracks is exemplary. I have yet to find a site that in fact does conduct in-depth high quality reviews of video cameras and would certainly appreciate hearing if such a site does exist.

Never mind, when I receive my RX10 you can be sure I shall at least stick the thing on a tripod, shoot a few clips and upload the MTS files untouched off the camera for viewing. Trouble is being way down here in this remote part of the planet it is not scheduled to arrive until 12/12/13. When I whined about that to my local reseller he smiled and said the other side of the coin is that all the garbage that happens out there in the world mostly doesn’t make it down here. He has a point, I suppose, but if I had ordered it from B&H it would be almost on my doorstep, sans warranty unfortunately.

And yes, hopefully we might soon see footage that is somewhat helpful but I’m not holding my breath waiting for a half-decent review.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 03:38 PM   #67
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

I could order the camera, shoot with it and send it back saying I didn't like it, it's something we can do within I think 7 days if we order online :) You never know which source to really trust but that's why I like to see reviewers that know how to shoot (like bloom) as opposed to ones that know all the technical ins and outs but shoot awefull video.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:33 PM   #68
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

From Cinema5d:
Sony RX10-first look cinema5D

-Most important, picture quality. This camera DOES have strong aliasing and even worse, kind of micro blocking in “low light parts of the picture” or when it comes to “fine structure” like hair.
--------------------------------------------------------------
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Well I can see a bit of that, even 1-2 times it looks like a bit moire. Also the codec isn't perfect, especially for this shaky run and gun situations. But it's not as bad that I stop to follow the story, that's what happen often to me when I watch DSLR videos. Yes the restaurante picture got a bit soft, maybe if you need higher iso some post sharpening is required.

Hmmm, I was close to order a RX10. My expectations have been a bit higher, on the other side for that money it looks still like a very good offer. I'm looking forward to the test from EOSHD, because a comparison to the FS100 will hopefully show how good the value of the Rx10 really is. This sounds better to me than pixel peeping and comparing it to the perfect image for what you have to spent way more money.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:37 PM   #69
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

So far the "reviews" all have "interesting" inaccuracies (one stated a "66x zoom"?!?)... sigh, sometimes first is not so good...


Part of what makes this camera a bit hard to get a handle on is it's a STILL camera, with a strong VIDEO side (which takes it out of "overpriced" to about the same $$ as a high end Handycam, but with better capabilities). SO, you find still photography sites thinking "wow, it's a REALLY expensive P&S", and not knowing how to shoot video better than uncle Bob... and the bit of video popping up seems to be basically "auto" footage, which will not be "bad", but also will not show what the camera can do.

It took me quite a while to dig through everything available in the extensive RX100 menus before I was able to get video results I felt were what I wanted. The M2 came easier, since the learning curve (which is actually more of a rock wall climb!) was already behind me. The RX10 should be "similar", but I'm sure will have its own set of things to learn.

I would venture to guess that anyone with less than a few HOURS of experience with the RX10 will have barely scratched the surface - this is the typical downfall of "reviews" - they grab a camera, poke at it a bit, and render a "verdict", usually with aforementioned "interesting inaccuracies"... it's not like an advanced camera is a dang kitchen appliance like a garbage disposal...you actually have to LEARN to use the thing a bit!


I love the stills from my RX100M2, and I'm quite happy with the video it shoots as well (I did see a little overexposure in a few sections of some of the stuff I've shot, BUT I wasn't adjusting the EV down either, nor was the video "BAD", in fact it was pretty GOOD). Ultimately, the bottom line is I have it with me, and so I get acceptable footage of stuff I wouldn't get AT ALL if I had to drag a bigger camera around! I'm still on the fence about the size of the RX10 for that very reason, but I have been using the RX100M2 with the HX300 for when the RX just doesn't have "reach", and it's easy to carry that "kit".

From experience with the RX100 and M2, as well as plenty of Sony cams, EV shift will be your friend. The other feature worth experimenting with is the DRO function. Between those two it should be possible to control exposure quite adequately if and when you really need to. I did see someone pulling the EV back, and then pushing it back up in post as needed... they found that to be very effective, as would be expected. I doubt they knew the DRO was even there...

It does appear that the RX10 is quite sharp, so it may well have a more "video" quality than an SLR, and there's only so much you can expect from the 1" sensor - but how many VIDEO cameras have a constant 2.8 and a 1" sensor?? Sure, there will be times to shoot video with something with a bigger sensor too, so I can see having an SLR/SLT in the toolbox.

Again, this is an entirely new "class" of camera, with it's little bros the RX100/100M2, and they DO take both high quality stills (not something you can get from a Handycam, at least from the times I've tried), and very good video. All in packages that fit in your pocket (RX100), or a small bag... pretty decent "hammers" for visual artists, all things considered! Perfect? Probably not, but I'm noticing a consistency in the reviews - they are impressed when they didn't expect to be, and they are having FUN shooting... that's a "feature" that you cannot put a price on, and yet it's there.

I'll take FUN over "pixel perfect" (as long as it's "almost" perfect <wink>) - Sony is catching on that average users are NOT using P&S cameras anymore - they have their CELL PHONES for that "fun" moment. They are aware that dragging 10 pounds of SLR or video "kit" with you negates the "fun", and that's a very limited market. The RX series is for "serious" photo/video, without all the weight/size...
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 07:10 PM   #70
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Plus one to all the points you made Dave.

I downloaded the original ‘en&is- Shot with the RX10’ and my reaction was...this will do me. Like most gear reviewers he must find fault and in this instance it seems to me we have a case of ‘praising with faint damning’. His actions speak louder than his words (surprise!) as the video he produced is very nice indeed. Close-ups without blinking. Furthermore the bit rate of the ‘original’ I downloaded is less than half the specified capability of the camera. What he did to the ‘real’ original, including the post-edit compression, we do not know.

And he makes the same almost criminal mistake made by the bulk of the photography site reviews but in reverse; he fails to mention the fact that this camera, seemingly, shoots high quality photographs, and for me that is also a key capability. But not a word about that from this reviewer, unfortunately. In his defense he may not consider himself qualified.

Of course he must grizzle about AVCHD; how old is that getting?

Whatever, the ‘original’ piece published at his Vimeo site is not too shabby. So when I largely ignore what he says, and fails to say, but simply view his output I am more than delighted. As a walk-about image capturing device, more and more this thing looks like it will indeed be my cup of tea.

Nice piece - well done Johnnie Behiri.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 07:18 PM   #71
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swen Goebbels View Post
From Cinema5d:
Sony RX10-first look cinema5D

-Most important, picture quality. This camera DOES have strong aliasing and even worse, kind of micro blocking in “low light parts of the picture” or when it comes to “fine structure” like hair.
Johnnie Behiri did the test, he also tested the sony nex-ea50 and what he said about the shortcomings of that camera was right as I do own it, therefore I do trust him with his current findings of the rx10. I do think his video looked pretty good but I did see a few high contrast scenes flashing by which again showed how poor the camera would handle strong highlights which easily seem to turn into hotspots. It looks like it's a great run and gun camera which would handle most situations right, only the high iso/soft footage issue is not very reassuring. I"m becoming more certain it's better for me to just invest in an almost equally expensive 35-100mm lumix lens instead of this rx10.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 07:45 PM   #72
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

The RX10 is designed to select under exposed areas and selectively apply NR, hence what he saw. If you do not like it then turn down/off NR or use lights. If you try to use this as an extreme low light camera then this will happen. But you can stop it, just read the manual.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 07:49 PM   #73
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Are you referring to the aliasing or the softness at high iso?
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:08 PM   #74
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

^
He refers to both these things in areas of low exposure, not in the overall image. That is the NR working as designed.

This may not be the best system, but you can turn it off or lower it. Just use NR in post.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:23 PM   #75
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

@ John -

My reaction as well... it'll do just fine! Your comment that the "original" is at a reduced bitrate may well be the problem, or part of it - I've accidently shot personal tests with a camera at less than optimal settings a "few" times... easy mistake, as Sony typically does not seem to set "best" settings as the DEFAULT! More than once I've looked at something and thought it looked "off", only to check settings and discover "user malfunction".


I saw a few spots of "rough handling", that could also be the intelligent NR, we'll have to wait and fiddle with that function, but again, the image quality was something that would probably have left us all barefoot (knocked our socks clean off!) just a couple years ago if someone said they shot it with such a "minimalist rig". I'm presuming maybe the external mic adapter might have been used, but no lights, and I'm guessing this could easily have been shot with just the cam, a couple backup batteries and memory... when taking into consideration the overall presentation of the CONTENT, it's pretty slick to be able to do this with such a small "kit".



Low light performance is "OK" with the RX100M2, at least wide open (constant f/2.8 will be NICE, IMO) - and depending on the situation, you can bump the ISO and adjust shutter down to 1/30 and get "usable" performance - this is one of those things that is subjective, and a tiny LED light works wonders too. I will have to wait and have "hands on" to know how the RX10 performs - sometimes Sony does go backwards in low light performance, but I don't expect that here. Samples I saw looked like you might be able to push to ISO 6400 in a pinch, though there is a price to be paid, and I've seen some tests indicating the RX100M2 is a little cleaner than the RX10...

Honestly, I thought it was pretty hard to find much (any?) fault with that entire piece, and the subject matter was cool too. For what the camera can do in a small package, I'm sold, I'm sure there will be more than a few of these that are returned because they are "too complex"... I'll be in line for the "open box" deals!
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