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Old November 26th, 2013, 08:51 PM   #106
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Pardon me for going a little off-topic, is it you John who posted a BMPCC video (ProRes) of Waikawa Bay a while back. I remember loving those gorgeous shots despite some being out of focus but that's understandable given how "pig" the camera is to operate. If you did post that I suggest you forget about getting the RX10 and saving some more money for a real video camera instead. Not only does the codec break down noticeably when stressed, the resolution, dynamic range and gradation in static scenes don't appear to be much different from a number of palm-sized Sony Handycams I use, e.g. CX760E, PJ760VE and NX70P. I'm afraid no matter how hard you try the image you get will just not be comparable to that Waikawa Bay video.

Last edited by Wacharapong Chiowanich; November 26th, 2013 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Typo corrections
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Old November 26th, 2013, 11:29 PM   #107
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Thank you Wacharapong; that was indeed me. I should first point out that I consider image capturing devices somewhat like golf clubs. Even though I donít play golf I find the analogy useful as most people have an understanding of the game. I would no more think of approaching the fun of image capturing as a one-camera exercise than one would head out onto the golf course with just one club in the bag. Which camera to pull out of the bag is very much determined by the lay of the land and what I am trying to achieve bearing in mind the important variables. Even if I was intent just on putting practice I might bring along more than one putter and chose as I see fit at the time. Itís not this or that but rather this and that.

Another useful analogy is to consider motor vehicles. What is the best motor vehicle? Bearing that in mind what do you suggest in the way of a real video camera?

One camera missing from my bag of tricks is a walk-about device that is lightweight and highly portable; that captures both high quality still photographs and decent quality video as well as checks most if not all of my boxes and that is quick and easy to use. The camera I have that comes closest to fitting that bill is a NEX 5n with a Sony E 18-200mm F3.5-6.3 attached. For my purposes this setup has limitations that the RX10 will resolve.

Regarding the AVCHD codec deployed in the RX10 could you please point me to footage that demonstrates the shortcoming you mentioned? That would be most appreciated. I have several cameras that record AVCHD and have not experienced that phenomena as yet. Mind you, I donít really do heavy grading.

In any event my plan to add the RX10 to my kit is not to replace any of my other clubs but to compliment them. My lowly HX20v has a place too and when Noa sends me the round trip ticket plus expenses I shall pop it into my pocket and go shoot the Big Sur thing for him. Of course I will also need a couple of weeks recovery time in Honolulu paid for. Be that as it may the RX10 I believe will do many things better than the HX20v does, and vice versa.

Based on the specifications, the footage especially MTS files I have viewed and the rapidly emerging mini-reviews of experienced videographers I am thus far convinced that purchasing an RX10 is money well spent. Whether or not I shall be able to deliver Waikawa Bay Way quality footage (in focus) using the RX10 I shall explore, of that you can be sure. I hear what you are saying and thank you for your input. I shall attempt to understand the dynamics involved. But that is not the end of the story as I donít see the RX10 as a direct replacement of the BMPCC. I certainly do not expect the RX10 to be such a pig to operate; in fact I believe it might just be fun.

Cheers...
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Old November 27th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #108
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

If the RX10 faces anything in the market it is that distinctly dual personality - is it a still camera that shoots video or a video camera that shoots stills...?? Yes, yes it is...

I've already said that the photographer will say "too expensive" (from that standpoint it is, sort of - I'm trying not to think of what I have in my Alpha cams in comparison...), and the video guy will have a bit of trouble getting their head around a still camera with video emphasis... It's a new class of camera, there will probably be a few kinks to work out (hopefully via firmware updates), and it's a unique "hammer" - one that may not fit everyone's toolbox, but for many, it could be one fine tool, even if there are some "flaws".

I'm not seeing any "fatal" flaws in footage I've seen, as in deal breakers - not something I can say for some other "popular" cameras I've tried or considered. I'd even say some shots have stood out as "eye candy" - good camera work, but also a good camera... you can sort of tell that whatever the "critiques" that one must have in a review, the camera was not overly standing in the way of creativity and good camera work, if that makes sense.

I'm trying to remember when I last shot video with a video camera... lately it's been the RX100/M2 and the HX300 - why? Because they are small, light, easy to get acceptable results with, and yeah, they happen to be fun to shoot... the results look "fine" to me, no complaints under most conditions. I'm sure they are not "perfect", but they beat most of the cameras I've used in recent years, and again, light and easy to carry, so I have them when the opportunity strikes.

I'm not expecting a 1" sensor cam to have "better" image quality than the A77/A65, or a VG series video camera, or... or... but I know the RX100 and now the M2 version do a fine job, and like John says, the 100M2 will be "the right club" at least some of the time, even after there's a RX10 in the bag! Will everyone want or need to have one... prolly not, but that's why there are lots of different cameras, right?

From my view, the RX10 will definitely replace several cameras I've got, and possibly a couple others, but some other cameras (like the RX100M2) will definitely be remaining in the "fleet". As John says, you don't go golfing with one club, or take a tool bag with just a pair of pliers, or go to the racetrack with a minivan...
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Old November 27th, 2013, 05:26 AM   #109
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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Originally Posted by John McCully View Post
….a walk-about device that is lightweight and highly portable; that captures both high quality still photographs and decent quality video as well as checks most if not all of my boxes and that is quick and easy to use.
Alternatives to the RX10 would be:
- Panasonic G6 + 14-140mm Lens (A little better stills, comparable video quality, same codec, nearly similar in size/form factor, cheaper)
- Panasonic GX7 +14-140mm Lens (Even better stills, better video quality, same codec, more of a cross between the RX10 and RX100 and weighing more or less the same as the RX10, a little more expensive)

Now you could have one camera to make sure you get the shots and the other to make sure that if you have unlimited time and patience the shots you get would more likely be the ones that truly impresses.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 06:45 AM   #110
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

I am a Panasonic guy and a big fan of the G6, but the RX10 vs G6 +14-140 comparison breaks down in low light.

The 14-140 cannot match the light gathering performance of the RX10's constant f2.8 lens.

And neither camera has a built-in ND filter or a headphone jack. The GX7 doesn't even have a mic jack.

Panasonic's only real answer to the RX10 is a GH3 with 12-35 and 35-100 lenses - but that's less than 10x total zoom - and carrying two lenses around is a lot less convenient and a lot more money.

The RX10's strength is clearly not its codec. Its competitive advantages are its lens, its convenience and its price. This will be the sweet spot for a lot of buyers this holiday season.

I'm sticking with Panasonic for now, but if Sony can lift the 30 minute continuous recording limit outside of the EU and fix the codec, I'll get rid of my GH cameras and buy the "RX20" :)

Heck, if they add RAW to the "RX30", I'll sell my BMPCC!

Cheers, and best of the holidays,

Bill
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Old November 27th, 2013, 06:53 AM   #111
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Sony make a point of having a clean HDMI for external recording which will solve any concerns about the AVCHD codec and allow for long record time too. Still think we will see this sensor in a real camcorder though.

I agree with having different cameras though. For skiing I have my HX30V and GoPro 3 Black Edition. Both go in my ski jacket pockets ( or on my helmet). The rest of the time the HX30V lives in my wife's handbag to take photos of the grand kids. RX10 is still too big for this task. For theatre shoots my NX5U and now FDR-AX1 with NX30U and CX700, several heavy tripods and Manfrotto clamps . Tasks are very different and need different tools. "One size fits all" is not a likely proposition. With modern technology there are a lot of overlaps that did not exist in the past where depending on needs a single camera may fit the job .

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Old November 27th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #112
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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Originally Posted by Bill Bruner View Post

The 14-140 cannot match the light gathering performance of the RX10's constant f2.8 lens.
Don't forget that RX10 has a smaller sensor than M4/3 cameras, so despite the larger aperture they have almost the same light gathering ability. The 2.8 is equivalent to 4 in the M4/3 format.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 07:47 PM   #113
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Only as it regards depth of field otherwise 2.8 is 2.8.
If you light a scene and shoot the GH3 the 5DIII and the RX10, they will all read the same exposure at f/2.8.
The other difference is that the smaller sensor will have more noise.
But as far as equivalent light gathering, 2.8 will expose the same on the RX10 as it will on the 5D.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 09:48 PM   #114
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

^
Yes, but the smaller sensor pixel size will decrease light gathering ability from that constant f2.8 roughly in proportion to sensor size (really in proportion to pixel size given equal sensor technologies, but there is only roughly a full stop difference between backlit and regular sensor technologies). So, a f2.8 lens on the RX10 will roughly be equal to a F4 on the MFT, for producing equivalent exposures under conditions of low light, and only under those conditions if they had equal sensor technologies. However, the Sony sensor is backlit and I am not aware that most MFT sensors are, so the difference in pixel size is negotiated by sensor technology. F2.8 always produces the same illumination, actually T2.8 is always the same, but then the issue is what can the sensor do with that light when conditions are marginal. If there is an excess of light then this constraint does not apply.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #115
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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Originally Posted by Wacharapong Chiowanich View Post
...I suggest you forget about getting the RX10 and saving some more money for a real video camera instead.
Right on! I've been thinking about John McCully's Waiwaka video... Hmm, he might save up for a Red Dragon for his golf bag: that would really hit it for me. Now back to reality...
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Old November 28th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #116
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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...a Red Dragon for his golf bag...
Yeah, right! That thing with lenses, battery and so... I would need a real live caddy! Too much hassle, too inconvenient altogether and it doesnít even do stills. Forget it; I prefer the RX10.

Hereís another half-decent review from Canada. Just look at all that snow, and yes, I do declare I see blown highlights!

Seems to me the reviewers must find at least one problem or they might be perceived as not doing their job, or worse they might be perceived as beholden to the manufacturer. And guess what; that bad old horrible dastardly AVCHD codec is the problem. Wouldnít you know it!

Sony engineers must be complete idiots, ha ha.

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Old November 28th, 2013, 01:58 PM   #117
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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Just look at all that snow, and yes, I do declare I see blown highlights!
That snow looks like it's radioactive, is there someone that owns the camera that is seeing the same that highlights blow out easily?
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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:26 PM   #118
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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That snow looks like it's radioactive, is there someone that owns the camera that is seeing the same that highlights blow out easily?
Ha ha, maybe it is radioactive. He did point out that this was a Canadian Defense testing ground and one might come across unexploded ordinance and you just never know what those Canadians might have been up to.

If you want to see well controlled highlights check out Dan Carter on Vimeo and in particular his Arizona Biltmore Resort (Sony DSC-RX10). Note what looks like wide dynamic range. I would say he might have about 14 stops, or more perhaps :-)
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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:27 PM   #119
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

One has to ask how was it edited and did the NLE used manage Superwhite recorded by all the Sony's AVCHD. If not it will be clipped and loose all the highlights detail. I tend to rework all the output from my cameras using the YUV filter in Edius to bring in range and correct gamma.

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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:34 PM   #120
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

That's an interesting statement Ron, if that is actually the case that could explain this "problem" most users don't seem to be aware about. I"m currently downloading Dan's rx10 video so I can have a better look.
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