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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:37 PM   #121
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

You would need his raw unedited files to really check though.

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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:41 PM   #122
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

I now note that Dan used a polarizer which may have enabled greater dynamic range to be captured.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #123
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Must say Dan's footage is the best I have seen so far from this camera, it was partly cloudy that day so that can have an effect on perceived dynamic range but nevertheless it looks very good, also the indoor footage.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #124
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

I agree; by far and away the best I have seen off the RX10. Dan did a great job. I am encouraged, may I say re-enthused.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #125
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
I tend to rework all the output from my cameras using the YUV filter in Edius to bring in range and correct gamma.Ron Evans
That's very interesting Ron. I need to understand how that works in Vegas Pro 12, if in fact it does. You don't happen to know Vegas Pro do you? Or even if you would be so kind as to point me in the right direction in Edius that might be a useful point of departure for me.

Many thanks...

My apologies for the somewhat off-topic deviation.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #126
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

What app can I use to control the camera with my smartphone?
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Old November 28th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #127
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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I now note that Dan used a polarizer which may have enabled greater dynamic range to be captured.
Definitely another "must have" accessory - polarizer to cut glare - have one on the RX100M2, well worth having... must go check out Dan's work, as he had good mastery of the RX100M2, which should help with the RX10!

As for the Camera store review -
Snow is another one of those "worst case" scenarios - but again, "- EV" would be your friend. Polarizer is a good add, and I'm looking forward to experimenting with the DRO more. All in all, even if the snow WAS "hot", the images overall looked pretty decent - skin/face exposure and tones looked good - the camera does seem to favor proper exposure for the likely "subject" over whatever background "radiation" levels might be. What I did see looked quite promising, and with a little adjustment, I should think any "issues" could be dealt with.

Last edited by Dave Blackhurst; November 28th, 2013 at 04:59 PM.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 04:34 PM   #128
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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That's very interesting Ron. I need to understand how that works in Vegas Pro 12, if in fact it does. You don't happen to know Vegas Pro do you? Or even if you would be so kind as to point me in the right direction in Edius that might be a useful point of departure for me.

Many thanks...

My apologies for the somewhat off-topic deviation.
I do use Vegas 12 but mainly for audio so am not used to fine tuning of video in Vegas. You can see the effect though easily by placing an AVCHD clip from a Sony camera on the time line, view waveform to see that ire is around 109 most of the time for white, then apply the Broadcast filter to the clip. The whites will blow out and loose all detail when viewed in the preview monitor. Just like the hot snow of the Camera Store video. The equivalent to YUV filter for Edius in Vegas would be the levels control but I am not good at explaining these. The control is easier in Edius. Matthew Scott is the expert at grading in Edius Matthew Scott Cinematography Blog

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Old November 28th, 2013, 05:21 PM   #129
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Ron, many thanks for that, most appreciated. I need to get up to speed with that and playing around with the BMPCC and Resolve has been something of an eye opener. I do understand that learning to use the RX10 in order to extract the most from it will also involve upgrading my Vegas Pro skills.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 05:48 PM   #130
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Folks need to get over saying pros don't use AVCHD. That's a completely ridiculous assertion with no basis in reality.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 08:57 PM   #131
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Dan Carter's style and his preference have always been shooting from a solid support i.e. tripod, monopod etc. with minimal camera movement and quite often stationary with static scenes. This is a type of shooting that stresses the codec, focusing/exposure/AWB response significantly less than typical handheld shooting with moderate camera movement does.

For instance, my Sony CX760E, now a two generation old design, has 24, 17, 9 and 5 Mbps 25p AVCHD modes. For talking head shooting with some subject's hand, arm and facial movements but with the camera mounted on the tripod, all of my assistants in the studio, myself included, mostly cannot tell the differences between the 24, 17, 9 Mbps files played back on our 23 and 27 inch 1080p Samsung monitors. Only when we go down to 5 Mbps do we see some differences in artifacts and smearing of fine details but even so they are still not quite noticeable when viewed on a 50 inch HDTV from about 7-8 foot distance.

I'm pretty sure the RX10 will show similar characteristics with respect to compression artifacts in it's video modes. However it should do somewhat better as it's a newer design but we won't know for sure unless someone mounts it on a solid bracket along with the likes of GH3, GX7, G6 or RX100 and shoots the exact same scene with identical movement.

Last edited by Wacharapong Chiowanich; November 29th, 2013 at 08:07 AM. Reason: Typo corrections
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Old November 28th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #132
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

I think that it's not that you "can't" use AVCHD, it's the feeling that the max bitrate (28Mbps in 60p) is not quite up to the task when there's a lot of motion in the frame, resulting in artifacts and less detail than the cameras are capable of, due to the results of the necessary compression and resulting loss.

I've found 60p to be pretty clean when freezing frames, but it has to be stressing the limits of the bitrate in complex scenes with high motion - more data points changing that have to be "handled". 24p will reduce the number of frames and take some stress off the bitrate (IIRC 24p tops at 24Mbps?), but then you get the problems with potential stutter when motion is involved...

Seems like the complaints are with scenes with more motion, but otherwise the CODEC is holding up fairly well. This of course will become quite a bit more interesting when 4K becomes the expected capability - you somehow have to process all those extra data points and still be able to write it to memory, and of course play it back too... more heavy processing... and more storage space...

HDV had problems "back in the day", and that wasn't long ago, earlier implementations of AVCHD at lower bitrates were "OK", but better bitrate = more data points = better images... - it's a constant engineering battle to handle more and more data...

EDIT: I see Wacharapong was posting at the same time... yes, lower motion stresses the codec less, fewer changing data points per frame (more "similar" data points from frame to frame that don't have to be dealt with), so you can "get away with" lower bitrates and it still may look OK... of course those of us who like to shoot things moving about quickly, while shooting handheld with minimal additional support might have different expectations <wink>.


All that aside, the RX10 looks pretty good to me overall, should be a handy and versatile tool. 5 years from now, it'll probably look "dated", but that's tech. Actually, might look "dated" by next year, but right now, it's in a class by itself.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 09:30 PM   #133
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Well my FDR-AX1 at 60P looks nice. That data rate is 150Mbps. So for 4 times the pixels that data rate is 5.4 times that of AVCHD with a newer codec implementation. It needs a fan to keep it cool though !!! But to be fair the difference between 24Mbps 60i of my NX5U and 50Mbps of the FDR-AX1 at 60P 1920x1080 is not noticeable on the things I have shot so far. The FDR-AX1 has a cleaner image. All on a tripod and low movement though.

The processing needed for 4K at the moment needs a big box and a fan. Not something one would expect in something like a RX10. However an external box with a fan may be perfect !!! If one can get a connector that will stay in place on the camera.

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Old November 29th, 2013, 12:55 AM   #134
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

I agree, there are issues with the codec in certain situations and it is far from perfect. I bump against these limits all the time when shooting in AVCHD. My point is that in several RX10 reviews there is a fair amount if complaining about the codec and its unsuitability for pro work. This statement is patently wrong. Having issues does not remove it from the pro arsenal. And, for its faults, it also does quite a lot very well. Just pointing that out for anyone new to the format that may be swayed by these rediculous statements.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 08:18 AM   #135
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Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

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Folks need to get over saying pros don't use AVCHD. That's a completely ridiculous assertion with no basis in reality.
This.
Showtime didn't seem to have any problem paying me for the video I shot for them on my FS100.
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