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Old September 19th, 2015, 04:55 PM   #1
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RX10 vs. RX10II

I've already posted on the "wobble and noise" thread, but thought perhaps a few more "initial observations" might be useful to anyone thinking of a MkII, or an old, terribly outdated, useless, "mark1" (sarcasm!).

First impression, the "2" looks pretty much exactly like the "1" on the outside (meh), except for the tiny little "II" after the RX10 next to the lens... all the accessories if you have them for a "1" will simply transfer over, along with batteries, filters, and so on.

I did a little "side by side" comparison shooting in my low light office conditions, noticed that Sony changed the ISO setting for low light from 3200 to 6400 (it's also user adjustable, I think...)... so at first glance it seems like the new sensor is better in low light than the "old" one... after matching settings, I'd say it may be a tiny bit better (brighter, a tad less noise?), but not worth getting all excited about.

I'd say it does appear that the little rolling shutter that you might have with the "old" sensor is reduced to negligible with the new "stacked" sensor with on-sensor memory so it reads faster... I never felt "shake it like you just don't care" was proper camera technique, so it wasn't really a problem before... need to go find some fast moving stuff to shoot...

I just happened to use a card that I shot with in the "old camera", so I played back some of the horribly outdated soft fuzzy "60p/50M" XAVCS... looked simply stunning and sharp on the 4K monitor... hmmm, guess it's not THAT bad, in fact it looked "4k enough" to pass muster, way better than any other "HD" or small sensor "4K" I've fiddled with...

SO, I did a little side by side in the ugly office light... YES, the 4K is sharper and more detailed when played back on screen, but frankly you have to look REALLY hard to see the difference - the "HD" from a "mark I" is probably more than "good enough" for many purposes... 4K is gorgeous, and offers certain advantages, but you also have to live with and adjust shooting techniques to 30fps... There might well be times you'd use the 60p50M setting, and it'd still look smashing on a 4K screen!

The focus algorithms are "quicker" in most cases on the "2", although I found it did sometimes hunt just a bit, and sometimes lost focus entirely and had to be zoomed out and in to recover (strange, but not an unknown or unusual issue from my experience, particularly in bad light...). Noticeably faster than the "1" though, overall.

Also played around with the focus settings in the menus - while not touchscreen, there is an option where you can invoke an onscreen "target" from the center button and use the 4 point "wheel" to select your desired focus point, which when you press the shutter button, it locks right in to that point - and you can do this repeatedly to reset the focus point, so it's "close" to touchscreen, just less convenient, will have to play with it some more...

I realized that all my cameras can now be "remotely" controlled with the Sony app, and really need to try that out (used it while testing the "action cam", and it's pretty nifty) - it's supposed to allow up to 5 cameras, which in an event scenario would be pretty slick for the one man band multicam shooter...

The other thing that might well be handy for some who shoot photos and video is that you can now shoot up to 17Mpixel stills WHILE shooting 60p50M video - it looks like it even has an "auto shutter" that will snap off what it thinks are "keeper" shots for you... will have to try that, and see if the camera is a better 'tog than I am! Of course, no stills while in 4K, but... it's yet another big boost in performance to be able to do both those things at those rates simultaneously.


I'll make one observation... the menus are VERY deep, the included manual doesn't tell you squat about WHAT the functions actually do, just what function the buttons or menu items invoke or whatever. I'll have to look to see if Sony provided any better docs online, but IMO, if you've never shot a Sony, the menus will take some time to get used to and explore (not a few minutes, but HOURS OR DAYS), and if you're a Sony user, you'll still need time to get the most out of this beast... you can go "auto" and get good results, but if you like to have control, you could take a while to customize the "fn" menu to your taste and have a camera that adjusts whichever way you want! Definitely a "serious user" camera on both still and video sides of the equation.


Final thought, still like my "mark I", which at the prices they are selling for used is quite likely the bargain of the century as cameras go... it's still a very usable camera, that has provided excellent results in the time I've had it, and it'll probably be relegated to backup duty without any hesitation - it doesn't "feel" like it's outdated or lower image quality or anything like that.

If the new features of the Mark II trip your trigger (I've yet to try the HFR stuff, but that alone is something that used to be really expensive to obtain...), when all the people who buy the MkII and don't take the time to figure out how to get the most out of it sell it at decent prices (and I'm sure there will be quite a few...), it's a very worthy successor to the Mark I, and definitely worth grabbing if the price is right...IOW, not "retail", unless you absolutely MUST have a brand new one, but it's still not obscenely overpriced as some reviewers seem to think - add up all it does, and it's pretty reasonable...

As always, there are less expensive options that do some of what the RX10 does, notably the FZ1000, so depending on your needs and desires and budget, the RX10 in either flavor may not be the perfect camera for you, but it's well worth the look! I wasn't planning on upgrading the Mk I this soon, but got a deal I couldn't refuse... and once again, very impressed with the camera!
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:36 AM   #2
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Dave, Agree with all your observations.
In general, Very happy with my Mkii as well, my only disappointment is no improvement in the already poor steadyshot and when in 4k mode the viewfinder dims and active steadyshot not available.
Which is a shame on what's probably the best all in one travel cam at present !
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:57 AM   #3
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Dave, as a has-been RX10 user I found your post most interesting. Many thanks for sharing. You are a just-for-fun shooter like me these days I believe based on your previous posts. Our experiences are hardly meat and potatoes for the cut and thrust pros out there seeking to make a living in seemingly more and more difficult times. So my comments should be considered lightweight and only applicable to the indolent lay-about sunny-day fun-loving shooters like us.

I enjoyed the RX10 first version. However now I have moved on and not to the new model but to the Sony AX100 and 4k, and I probably won't look back. I know it's not 60p and while I agree in principle with Ron Evans that 60p is the cats pajamas but for my type of shooting the 30p 4k I'm getting out of the AX100 is hugely more satisfying. When it comes to shooting moving pictures, of the type I do, I am now totally an AX100 30p 4k addict. I must say it took some time, longer than usual, to sort the AX100 to the point where I more or less know what I'm doing. The only downside thus far is that I find the EVF a tad dim and shall order a large eye-cup in the hope that this is no longer a bother.

If money grew on trees then perhaps I might purchase the new RX10, but I think not, and mostly because, as Noa Put commented a while back, when it comes to shooting video and handling the camcorder has something going for it that the DSLR style camera does not. So now when I pick up the RX0, which is hardly ever, I am reminded that I prefer the camcorder style when shooting video.

Of course many of us casual walkabout shooters enjoyed the not too shabby still photographs that can be got with the RX10 and undoubtedly one machine that does both moving and stills is a good thing, long wished for by many. Thing is I got myself a new Sony a6000, ridiculously inexpensive right now, and equally ridiculously competent, to which I attached a new Sony FE 70-200mm f/4.0 G OSS high class glass, not inexpensive I might add but worth every penny. I have to say when it comes to stills that combo is in another league altogether versus the RX10 and I'm altogether in seventh heaven. And while the video delivered by that combo is not up there with the AX100 4k it is remarkably good for all that and for my occasional need for 60p that's my go-to gear.

My RX10 will in all likelihood be stored away, join my BMPCC, FX1, Z1P, EX1 and numerous other devices that have had their day in the sun.

And if I decide to travel the planet yet again perhaps, just perhaps, the RX10 will come in handy.

Or maybe I shall get myself a RX100 4th edition...

Cheers.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 03:18 AM   #4
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Thanks Dave,

I was wondering how the M2 compared to the M1 that I own. I love my RX10 M1 and have heaps of fun with this little camera both for video and stills.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 05:04 AM   #5
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Dave, if you compare the rx10's and if you shoot in a standard or neutral profile in 1080p, does the image look the same? specifically the dynamic range, is there any improvement when you are not shooting s-log?

I always said that if I could get a faster zooming rx10 I would jump on it and eventhough my current rx10 is most used of all my camera's on a wedding day I have found it to be a unreliable one so my impression has changed somewhat. (maybe mine was build on a monday but I have experienced weird behavior on it ever since I got it.)

I really like the color it produces and even at 1080p I find it plenty sharp enough to fit in with my current other camera's, it's only it's limited DR, especially when I"m shooting indoors with a window in the back of my subject, that happens a lot a when the bride puts on the dress in a small room. this camera blows out that window excessively, often it's just one big white blob with no detail at all and exposing for the brides dress and face is very tricky.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 05:18 AM   #6
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

After careful review and use after a month, i have just sent the new rx10ii back. Purchased the fz1000 and confirm it is better in many ways, and before you jump on me i apoligise to fz1000 owners in the past but it is slightly better than the rx10ii, my opinion.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 05:23 AM   #7
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

ah, interesting, tell us why?
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Old September 20th, 2015, 08:10 AM   #8
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Well everyone was right about the wobble in the end i found it frustrating when i found i had it, when i thought i did not.Then i found the auto focus was not spot on and hunts before nailing it and with no touch screen i found it hard to be quick to manually focus when needing to be fast focusing. I found the colors a bit cold and subdued whatever i tried picture profile wise. I just could not get used to grading the slog-2 and it is so hard to nail exposure in that mode.The camera blows out to much with the slightest of brightness. The stills where not as good as my Sony z3 phone? Not very good in low light an test show my 70d kills it, 6d murders it.
Although it is supposed to have great stabilization i found intelligent mode and the rest to be to jittery with minor jitters and judders i could not control.
Price wise i found that it was just not worth it and for half price the fz1000 is well worth the money.
If the Sony would have touch screen and the swivel screen of the canons it would have been miles better.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 08:22 AM   #9
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

So nothing much has changed then because all your complaints, except the color but that's personal preference, have been mine as well with the rx10 mark 1, the addition of 4k, high framerates and a faster zoom make it appealing but it's pricepoint is too high compared to the original one. S-log is something I too find too much to deal with, the same as v-log in the gh4, might work great for some but it's not for me.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 08:36 AM   #10
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Interesting to see how you get on with the FZ1000. Although the price is amazing, allowing me to buy two, I have been a Panasonic man for a long time so it fits well with my video cams. I'm also not an admirer of Sony image colours, and I needed a larger telephoto than the RX10 for general use.

One of the things I would like to hear is what you feel about the low light as it has come in for criticism at the full telephoto end. Might be worth posting that on the FZ1000 thread though rather than diverting this RX10 one.

Roger
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Old September 20th, 2015, 08:59 AM   #11
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

A test I did in the beginning I had the rx10 was that 8000 iso on the rx10 looked like 6400 iso on my gh4 in sensitivity, since the fz1000 seems to share the same sensitivity at comparable iso levels compared to the gh4, aside from the noise difference, I have to believe that the same would apply to the rx10 and fz1000 when you would compare, the only difference is that at longer focal lengths the rx10 f-stop remains the same wide open which make it gain an advantage. Once you go 8000 iso with the rx10 and beyond the image doesn't look very pretty anymore where my gh4's have a much more pleasing look and ofcourse the ability to attach the right lens for the right situation which makes a big enough difference, something that a rx10 cannot do and which makes it even constant f2.8 lens limiting in use depending on the situation..
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Old September 20th, 2015, 11:10 AM   #12
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
So nothing much has changed then because all your complaints, except the color but that's personal preference, have been mine as well with the rx10 mark 1, the addition of 4k, high framerates and a faster zoom make it appealing but it's pricepoint is too high compared to the original one. S-log is something I too find too much to deal with, the same as v-log in the gh4, might work great for some but it's not for me.
So you are quite correct Noa!!
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Old September 20th, 2015, 11:11 AM   #13
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

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Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post
Interesting to see how you get on with the FZ1000. Although the price is amazing, allowing me to buy two, I have been a Panasonic man for a long time so it fits well with my video cams. I'm also not an admirer of Sony image colours, and I needed a larger telephoto than the RX10 for general use.

One of the things I would like to hear is what you feel about the low light as it has come in for criticism at the full telephoto end. Might be worth posting that on the FZ1000 thread though rather than diverting this RX10 one.

Roger
Will do Roger, checking the camera out next week... steve
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Old September 20th, 2015, 04:20 PM   #14
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Hey, since the FZ1000 and RX10 are sorta the same "class" of camera, I've got no problem with you guys hanging out here until ya get yer own forum (it can take a while)! Take yer shoes off and grab a beer!

I've given the FZ1000 serious consideration myself, might even try to grab one, the early video results I was seeing had macroblocking that I'm very familiar with from Panasonics I've owned, but I'm not seeing it in SOME of the posted video. I tried an FZ200, stills were too low res and skin looked weird to me (I guess I have "Sony color calibrated screens" <wink>). The FZ1000 is definitely a "different animal", and might even blend well with a little work, hard to argue with the MSRP price differential! If I find one cheap enough, I'll gladly give one a go! The FZ200 in the end didn't click for me, but I've used Panasonics in the past that were good for me... good tools are good tools!



Lots of things to respond to - one thing that helps with stabilization (on ANY camera) is a Stratos folding flash bracket I keep handy and use as often as possible - you have to watch the LCD on the RX's, as it can get "stuck" with a bracket (or tripod plate). Turns the otherwise awkward still camera form factor into a "mini" Fig Rig, helps a LOT with getting stable footage. I'll try later to post a pic, but my uploading to DVi has been forever broken...

I discovered there IS a "fast" option for the lens ring, and when set, you can move the lens quite quickly through the zoom range... I'm seeing a sort of "jerk" that seems like it's at the exact same spot in the zoom range, so it's likely part of the lens design as it moves a specific element less than elegantly.

@Noa - your RX10 has been infamous for it's "unique" malfunctions, I had an A65 that sometimes became posessed, so I guess electronics have their quirks!

I haven't fiddled with (or even FOUND) the SLOG settings (just getting to know the camera a bit, i presume that's in the picture profiles!), I have fiddled with the DRO in the past, and I'm guessing it's along the same lines to squeeze more DR out of the image/sensor - will be doing more experimentation as time allows. DRO can really flatten out the image, with a little noise penalty.

FWIW, I got my MkII for less than I paid for my original RX10 I was a bit excited to get the old one - it's still a "valid" camera in every way that really counts, and I had set a unrealistically low price for the upgrade, just happened to get lucky on one. I don't EVER pay MSRP of even close to it, and yep, Sony is a "premium" price product - if you consider what just the HFR modes would have cost you for a camera even a few years ago, it's not "totally" outrageous, but I'm probably not using that HFR that often, so... 4K OTOH, THAT I will use... even if the improvement isn't as large over the 1080p of the MkI as you might expect (yes, it keeps up with the AX100 "well enough")



@Steve - Sonys are famous for being biased towards blowing out/overexposure, usually dialing back the auto settings helps a lot. Used to it with my Sony videocams, it's a little trickier with the RX, but I try to set the EV to the negative a bit, seems to work for me, YMMV. I agree that "touch" and full articulation of the screen would be significant improvements,but they aren't deal killers to me...

Not sure what to say on the low light, I've been happy with the RX/AX, but I run manual and dial down shutter to 30 if it's really low, and an LED 'fill" light is useful when needed. Seems like 6400 is about the upper ISO limit before things get "crunchy", but that's just the limitations of sensor technology. I never expect to shoot a black cat in a windowless room at midnight (maybe if I get an A7 someday?), if my camera can "see" better than I can, I'm happy, and if I need to add a light, LED's are cheap, I have a couple.

There are a few focus settings, and I did notice a very slight "hunting" when not recording in one of the focus modes (others looked fine, I think), didn't see it when rolling, but I'm going to fiddle more with the options and see if I see any problems - if there are any, it's a firmware updatable "issue", so I won't panic, but these are the sorts of things one wants to be aware of!

Not sure what to say on the stills, mine come out quite lovely, and I've yet to see a reviewer complain that they are sub cell phone quality... perhaps a setting or two would be the fix, I don't know, mine are eye poppingly good... on a 4K calibrated monitor, they are stunning. The whole ability to shoot both stills and video in one camera without feeling compromised is to me the main attraction of the RX's, though I prefer the AX100 for dedicated video.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 04:40 PM   #15
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Re: RX10 vs. RX10II

Quote:
@Noa - your RX10 has been infamous for it's "unique" malfunctions, I had an A65 that sometimes became posessed, so I guess electronics have their quirks!
Again at yesterdays wedding, I had my whitebalance on auto because I was shooting in a mixture of indoor and outdoor light, the camera does well enough in these circumstances though I noticed there was quite some red in my footage, then I saw "a7" in the side of my viewfinder and didn't know what it stood for, I went to my whitebalance settings to find out that the white balance adjustment had been offset to red at the outer end of the scale which was 7 clicks to the right.

Don't ask me how that value got changed, it requires several pushes on the camera menu buttons to change it. I also reviewed the footage I took from the wedding before this last one and that looks normal so it has happened after that. The problem again is that I cannot replicate this error, I could bring the camera in but if I can't show what is wrong they will not accept it, quite frustrating.
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