Frame-like mode on PDX10 through "Flash" effect? at DVinfo.net

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Old July 11th, 2004, 12:19 AM   #1
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Frame-like mode on PDX10 through "Flash" effect?

There is a thread in the Sony VX2100 / PD170 Companion area where people talk about using the camera's "Flash" effect to create something that seems very similar to the "frame" mode on Canon and Panasonic camcorders. Douglas Akers reports slight resolution loss but less than with deinterlacing in post! This is very interesting. I tried this with my PDX10 on a TV (not a very good one) and I cannot see any loss of resolution.

Try it for yourself, tap the screen for FN/DIG EFFECT/FLASH and set it to one step above minimum, and see what happens.

Might it be that we have finally found the undocumented PDX10 proscan? ;-)

Here is a link to the mentioned thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...770#post197770
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Old July 12th, 2004, 01:13 PM   #2
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I have had no success recording this to tape (PAL)- it seems to be an in-camera only thing so i cannot confirm that its deinterlaced from a frame grab


the first notch does seem like 25 "progressive" at least on my PAL camera
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Old July 12th, 2004, 03:32 PM   #3
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Works for me. Note, I have an NTSC model.

John when you say you had no success you mean the camera won't go into rec mode or it records but at 60i no matter what you set the flash effect to? Or is the flash effect disabled alltogether when in camera mode? Do you have a PAL TRV950 or PDX10?
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Old July 12th, 2004, 05:32 PM   #4
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try this

record some fast pans at a middle flash motion setting and get the clip into an nle

look at the 1 frame level and you will see a number of "still frames" followed by an interlaced frame followed by more "still frames" reflecting the cameras new position

save a frame grab of the "still frame" and the "interlaced frame" that immediatly follows and get them into photoshop or similar

then deinterlace the "interlaced frame" and you will see that it is identical to the preceding "still frame" - which means that the flash motion is just deinterlacing at the expense of half the vertical resoltion
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Old July 12th, 2004, 06:48 PM   #5
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Hmm. Confusing. Anyway, what I like about the Flash mode is it's look at the first "notch", just a single bar, where ir resembles (in my case) 30fps frame mode. Not when you actually see the same frame (or field, or whatever it is) for, say, half a second.

If the cam is actually deinterlacing, that's pretty cool for me anyway since it can save time I might otherwise need to spend deinterlacing in post.

I'll try the NLE thing later and report.
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Old July 12th, 2004, 08:47 PM   #6
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Ignacio, thanks for keeping up on this subject.
Still frames and interlaced frames? Hmmm...
I can see why the camera would do that at the higher, more "flash" settings but, isn't that kinda what a motion difference DI does anyway?
As I scrubbed through the frames trying to decide which one to grab, I saw no difference on my production monitor(Sony PVM 8042Q) or computor monitor.
I'm sold on this.
My eye says this looks better than the traditional Instant Sex DI, and I would say that's better than half vertical resolution.
Anyone out there using a Nattress or Joe's DI plug-in?
It would be great to see a test done with one of those.
Of course, this is all about acheiving a film look for narrative movie making on the cheap and that's what I want, so this isn't for everyone.
Anyway, this is gonna save me a LOT of render time!
Someday I'll upgrade to a DVX but, that's a whole 'nother thread!
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Old July 12th, 2004, 08:56 PM   #7
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C'mon guys, instead of "theorizing" on what this effect might be doing, run a little test like I did here. It's easy to download and print the EIA1956 chart, there's a link on my page.

I've done my part with in the testing department recently... about time for somebody else to step up to the plate :-) These subjective judgements leave a lot to be desired. Also, I don't think you'll really take a 50% resolution hit with deinterlaced video (such as something shot at 1/30 sec). Remember, even when shooting at 1/60 second the camera does some vertical blending and resolution maxes out around 360 lines. So you might get 240 lines at 1/30 sec, although I have not tried this.

Like I said, time for somebody else to step up to the plate here...
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Old July 12th, 2004, 09:29 PM   #8
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Boyd, that's exactly what I did.
See the other thread for my jpg's.
Granted, I could have done better with the test itself but, I think the results are there.
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Old July 13th, 2004, 01:08 PM   #9
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> I've done my part with in the testing department recently...
> about time for somebody else to step up to the plate :-)

You certainly have and I really should, but my Mac died :-(
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Old July 29th, 2004, 06:21 AM   #10
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Anyone had any luck/results with this? Any luck with your dead Mac, Ignacio?
Just thought this thread should be kept alive as it sounds rather promising...
BTW, thanks to all of you who make this site such a wonderful resource of information. My experience of using my beloved PDX10p has been greatly enhanced due this site. Keep going!
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Old August 8th, 2004, 05:09 PM   #11
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The flash effect is essentially a strobe, what if you just used a strobe effect in your NLE (ex. FCP) at the lowest setting? I messed around with this a little and don't really see any difference between the in camera flash and the NLE strobe.
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Old August 10th, 2004, 01:26 PM   #12
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Just jumping in here but does the "strobe" effect in an NLE need render time? I suppose that would be the savings here. If you could do it in camera real time, there would be no rendering.

I am still wondering if it is recorded as a frame, how does it look from tape as the tape is undoubtedly interlaced or it wouldn't play. Overlapping fields of the same images? Line doubled?

I have so much to look into and so little time these days.

My praise to Boyd for the testing too. Boyd, you sort of get paid to play with this stuff anyway it seems. How wonderful. I used to when I was an Engineer. This is the sort of thing I would spend a few hours on discovering and reporting to the chief and owners at the post house I was at. Man I loved those days.

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Old August 10th, 2004, 06:50 PM   #13
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<<<-- Originally posted by Sean McHenry : My praise to Boyd for the testing too. Boyd, you sort of get paid to play with this stuff anyway it seems. -->>>

Where in the WORLD did you get that notion???? I hope you don't have the idea that I have any relationship with Sony, or that I am compensated for my contributions here at DVinfo. Anything I write is just my own personal opinion, and in the interest of helping others. My "wrangling" at DVinfo is strictly on a volunteer basis. I have never received so much as a t-shirt for anything. Please don't take that as a criticism either, I'm having a great time just "hanging out" with you guys!

Starting this summer I moved to a part time position at the Opera Company in an effort to help with a difficult budgetary situation and prevent further layoffs in my area. It was also a good excuse to take an easy year - maybe sort of a "trial retirement"? The PDX-10 testing was something on my mind for a long time, and helps me to understand what the camera is capable for purely selfish reasons, although I hoped that it would be useful to others as well. I bought all my own equipment, including cameras, at retail prices just like the rest of you.

Sean, it sounds like yopu had a terrific job in the past! Now if somebody wants to pay me for my opinions I'm sure we could have a nice discussion, but it has yet to happen. Until such time as it does, my opinions are worth exactly what all of you pay for them ;-)
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Old August 10th, 2004, 11:48 PM   #14
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Boyd,
I wasn't saying anything of the sort about you being on the payroll here or with Sony. I was talking about all your work with the Opera Company. Seems like you have done quite a bit of discovering what the PDX10 is capable of in the name of the job with the opera. And good for you and hats off to them for allowing you time and naturally, unlimited stacks of cash to buy test equipment and new lens accessories, etc.

Naturally, I jest.

But still, seems like you have found a good reason to use the time testing the abilities and workarounds for the little wonder.

Keep up the good work. And have fun too.

Did you ever get over to weeklydv.com?

We have drifted a bit... back to the topic.

Sean
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