PD150 Questions

Boyd Ostroff · May 15th, 2003, 02:56 PM

I think there's one other thing Wayne. The PD-150 has a menu function that will display the number of hours usage on various internal components. The VX-2000 lacks this funtion (however it's rumored that Sony tech's can read this data using a special service remote unit).

Brian Pink · May 15th, 2003, 08:21 PM

2 more cents in the pile, i got my pd150 in january and every time i use it i am more and more impressed with it. i really like the flexibilty of the 2-XLR inputs for times that i'm shooting solo ( i added an ME66/K6 & evolution 100 ) and i think the manual control of the camera is amazing. in the middle of a 3-day intense shoot and am so pleased each day when i grab the camera and see the pictures i get.

oh yeah, to stay on topic more, i really like the b+w viewfinder for focusing. i also find it easier on the eyes then the color one.

Garret Ambrosio · May 20th, 2003, 01:47 PM

Just recently sold my Vx2K to get a PD150 and yes the viewfinder is something to get used to since the VX2K had a nice color one, but having the VX9K I kinda got the hang of it. The logo instertion is mor ethan just the memory mix, it can also have some kind of protection, mainly used by broadcast companies, so that you don't go using CNN's camera to shoot for ABC. It can restrict or allow insertion of a logo.

Boyd Ostroff · May 20th, 2003, 02:28 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Garret Ambrosio : yes the viewfinder is something to get used to since the VX2K had a nice color one -->>>

Wow, I have a VX-2000 and there is no way I would consider its viewfinder "nice". The colors look lousy, it isn't very bright and the image looks really coarse. Very difficult to focus. The BW finder on my PDX-10 is (I think) pretty much the same as the PD-150, and it's much brighter and sharper. You can always use the LCD screen to check color.

John Steele · May 20th, 2003, 04:44 PM

One other correction to waynes post, when the VX2k is in manual exposure mode it won't alter the Gain, the difference here is that on the PD-150 you can set the exposure and gain independantly but on the VX you can't, it's only when the iris is fully open that going further on the dial will start to add gain. I hope I explained that right :)

John.

Yik Kuen · May 20th, 2003, 06:37 PM

Hi,

I did come across some reviews that compares VX200 and PD-150. Although they are identical in terms optics, but the internal image processing is slightly different.

PD-150 being a more professional cam produces slightly less vivid colors than the VX2000-which is suppose to impress casual viewers.

Also, try recording on DVCAM format on DVCAM tapes (not DVCAM format on DV tape) and take a closer look. DVCAM helps preserve more details and saturation. I can't believe my eyes when I first saw the difference, especially when everyone thinks that DVCAM only delivers better reliability not better quality.

Boyd Ostroff · May 20th, 2003, 07:33 PM

Yik, your comments are contrary to everything I've read. DVCAM stores data in the same format as DV, but should be less prone to tape errors. There shouldn't be any difference in the color saturation, etc. I'm sure Sony would like us to believe that those very expensive DVCAM tapes give better results! For that matter, they also like it when you record in DVCAM mode since they sell 33% more tape ;-) It's interesting how everyone raves about the quality of the XL-1s and DVX-100, but they record in standard mini-DV format. Sorry, I tend to be just a *little bit* skeptical about Sony's motives at times... for example their goofy floppy disk based Mavica still camera... remember, they are the biggest producers of magnetic media in the world and have a vested interest in selling you as much as possible. But don't get me wrong, I love Sony products, have two of the camcorders and a pile of other stuff.

Mike Rehmus · May 20th, 2003, 08:16 PM

Digital is digital. You are correct Boyd. There is no difference. I shoot both and I switch my PD150 back and forth depending on need.

Yik Kuen · May 20th, 2003, 10:32 PM

Absolutely, that was my very first belief too. But when we did the experiment, indeed, we got unexpected results!

My very good friend owns a PD-150. We tried shooting in the same environment, object, lightings and settings. To our surprise, shooting DVCAM mode on DV tapes and DVCAM mode on DVCAM tapes yields different results. We were puzzled too.

That was done one month ago. If we can still find the clips, I'll post some shots for comparison.

But the differences aren't that significant and hardly distinguishable through casual viewing.

Garret Ambrosio · May 22nd, 2003, 01:27 PM

Boyd, I guess beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder, but I liked my VX2000's color VF it, to me, was much better than the grainy and hard to see especially in bright conditions 2.5" LCD monitor. One more thing to consider, though the VF is smaller in size, but because it is right up your face and close to the eye it seemed larger than the 2.5" LCD. At least using my own eyes.

Yik, this is puzzling as well because according to all logical conclusions and knowledge about the digital format that these images "captured" by our cameras are merely converted to ones and zeroes using data that is collected from the optics and CCD sensor with compression applied. If DV and DVCAM uses the same compression ratio and the same optics and same CCD then logically it should be the exact same, unless ofcourse of oneor both of two things: 1: during the data stream, some of the bits are gets malformed (as it does in digital audio production) and error correction has been used to create a form interpolation to account for the missing or error bits. 2. The tape itself has microscopic defects that may record some bits incorrectly and the DVCAM tape may have a better material to insure against this from happening or lessen the frequency in which this has happen. I suspect the latter. Can you give a detail account on what you have captured and how or even post some screen shots of the two in comparison. Another suggestion is to shoot DV in a DVCAM tape to see if you notice a difference in quality if so then it is definitely the tape (media) and not the format in which you are shooting.

Mike Rehmus · May 22nd, 2003, 01:54 PM

DV and DVCam have heavy error correction. Small tape defects do not cause problems.

Look at a Hi-8 recording (8mm tape) and a DV recording (6mm tape) and you know that the combination of digital data and error correction is working even with a physically inferior tape format.

Sony has all the reasons in the world to tell us DVCam delivers a better picture and they don't. That should tell us something right there.

There is no picture quality difference between the two recording formats. Remember, the data format is the same in DV and DVCam. Anty true differences are in pre or post handling of the signal.

Garret Ambrosio · May 22nd, 2003, 02:11 PM

I agree Mike, but what if defects on the tape causes a one to be read as a zero by the head because it simply can not read the value. A minor defect may cause the head to read the wrong value when reading the tape.

Furthermore error correction is not an exact science it simple replaces the values according to an algorythm that it has been program to follow.

For instance streaming video through the internet. Even with an OC-12 or OC-3 connections you will intermintently receive errors in data transporting thorugh the net. This can also be caused by the errors in the interpreter on the other end as well, i.e. media player.

Error correction will replace these error bits with bits that will follow the algorythm or with zeroes. From a distance or if it happens infrequent enough these errors are dismissed by the brain, but if it is done frequently, the brain will start seeing a difference that many times we can not explain, we just know or see. That si one of the reasons why if you stream with a larger pipe the picture looks better, it is because you can stream more data at one time minimizing the frequency of the errors. I know there are others and others that are more of a factor, but this is definitely one of the issues in streaming data.

Andrew Plona · May 22nd, 2003, 07:25 PM

How would I use my stereo microphone which has a stereo mini jack to record sound on a PD150? Would seem to me that a stereo mini female to 2 xlr males would do it. I looked at many places but nobody had such a thing.

Stylianos Moschapidakis · May 22nd, 2003, 07:48 PM

Andrew,

I don't think there is such a thing as "a stereo mini female to 2 xlr males."

Make your audio stereo in post.

Check out this link; you'll find mini F to XLR M
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh1.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=CatalogActivator__Acatalog_html___CatID=4172___SID=F588D647BF0

Lou Bruno · May 24th, 2003, 10:18 AM

PD-150 being a more professional cam produces slightly less vivid colors than the VX2000-which is suppose to impress casual viewers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you use the same monitors?

The custom preset can be used to match the VX2000 to the PD150 via the saturation levels.

May 15th, 2003, 02:56 PM	#61
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Another item for the list... I think there's one other thing Wayne. The PD-150 has a menu function that will display the number of hours usage on various internal components. The VX-2000 lacks this funtion (however it's rumored that Sony tech's can read this data using a special service remote unit).

May 15th, 2003, 08:21 PM	#62
Brian Pink Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 94	2 more cents in the pile, i got my pd150 in january and every time i use it i am more and more impressed with it. i really like the flexibilty of the 2-XLR inputs for times that i'm shooting solo ( i added an ME66/K6 & evolution 100 ) and i think the manual control of the camera is amazing. in the middle of a 3-day intense shoot and am so pleased each day when i grab the camera and see the pictures i get. oh yeah, to stay on topic more, i really like the b+w viewfinder for focusing. i also find it easier on the eyes then the color one. __________________ This is the way the world ends.

May 20th, 2003, 01:47 PM	#63
Garret Ambrosio Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vallejo, CA Posts: 263	Just recently sold my Vx2K to get a PD150 and yes the viewfinder is something to get used to since the VX2K had a nice color one, but having the VX9K I kinda got the hang of it. The logo instertion is mor ethan just the memory mix, it can also have some kind of protection, mainly used by broadcast companies, so that you don't go using CNN's camera to shoot for ABC. It can restrict or allow insertion of a logo. __________________ "USA Today has come out with a new survey - apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population." -David Letterman

May 20th, 2003, 08:16 PM	#68
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Digital is digital. You are correct Boyd. There is no difference. I shoot both and I switch my PD150 back and forth depending on need. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

May 22nd, 2003, 01:27 PM	#70
Garret Ambrosio Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vallejo, CA Posts: 263	Boyd, I guess beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder, but I liked my VX2000's color VF it, to me, was much better than the grainy and hard to see especially in bright conditions 2.5" LCD monitor. One more thing to consider, though the VF is smaller in size, but because it is right up your face and close to the eye it seemed larger than the 2.5" LCD. At least using my own eyes. Yik, this is puzzling as well because according to all logical conclusions and knowledge about the digital format that these images "captured" by our cameras are merely converted to ones and zeroes using data that is collected from the optics and CCD sensor with compression applied. If DV and DVCAM uses the same compression ratio and the same optics and same CCD then logically it should be the exact same, unless ofcourse of oneor both of two things: 1: during the data stream, some of the bits are gets malformed (as it does in digital audio production) and error correction has been used to create a form interpolation to account for the missing or error bits. 2. The tape itself has microscopic defects that may record some bits incorrectly and the DVCAM tape may have a better material to insure against this from happening or lessen the frequency in which this has happen. I suspect the latter. Can you give a detail account on what you have captured and how or even post some screen shots of the two in comparison. Another suggestion is to shoot DV in a DVCAM tape to see if you notice a difference in quality if so then it is definitely the tape (media) and not the format in which you are shooting. __________________ "USA Today has come out with a new survey - apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population." -David Letterman

May 20th, 2003, 02:28 PM	#64
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	<<<-- Originally posted by Garret Ambrosio : yes the viewfinder is something to get used to since the VX2K had a nice color one -->>> Wow, I have a VX-2000 and there is no way I would consider its viewfinder "nice". The colors look lousy, it isn't very bright and the image looks really coarse. Very difficult to focus. The BW finder on my PDX-10 is (I think) pretty much the same as the PD-150, and it's much brighter and sharper. You can always use the LCD screen to check color.

May 20th, 2003, 04:44 PM	#65
John Steele Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 216	One other correction to waynes post, when the VX2k is in manual exposure mode it won't alter the Gain, the difference here is that on the PD-150 you can set the exposure and gain independantly but on the VX you can't, it's only when the iris is fully open that going further on the dial will start to add gain. I hope I explained that right :) John.

May 20th, 2003, 06:37 PM	#66
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi, I did come across some reviews that compares VX200 and PD-150. Although they are identical in terms optics, but the internal image processing is slightly different. PD-150 being a more professional cam produces slightly less vivid colors than the VX2000-which is suppose to impress casual viewers. Also, try recording on DVCAM format on DVCAM tapes (not DVCAM format on DV tape) and take a closer look. DVCAM helps preserve more details and saturation. I can't believe my eyes when I first saw the difference, especially when everyone thinks that DVCAM only delivers better reliability not better quality.

May 20th, 2003, 07:33 PM	#67
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Yik, your comments are contrary to everything I've read. DVCAM stores data in the same format as DV, but should be less prone to tape errors. There shouldn't be any difference in the color saturation, etc. I'm sure Sony would like us to believe that those very expensive DVCAM tapes give better results! For that matter, they also like it when you record in DVCAM mode since they sell 33% more tape ;-) It's interesting how everyone raves about the quality of the XL-1s and DVX-100, but they record in standard mini-DV format. Sorry, I tend to be just a little bit skeptical about Sony's motives at times... for example their goofy floppy disk based Mavica still camera... remember, they are the biggest producers of magnetic media in the world and have a vested interest in selling you as much as possible. But don't get me wrong, I love Sony products, have two of the camcorders and a pile of other stuff.

May 20th, 2003, 10:32 PM	#69
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Absolutely, that was my very first belief too. But when we did the experiment, indeed, we got unexpected results! My very good friend owns a PD-150. We tried shooting in the same environment, object, lightings and settings. To our surprise, shooting DVCAM mode on DV tapes and DVCAM mode on DVCAM tapes yields different results. We were puzzled too. That was done one month ago. If we can still find the clips, I'll post some shots for comparison. But the differences aren't that significant and hardly distinguishable through casual viewing.

May 22nd, 2003, 01:54 PM	#71
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	DV and DVCam have heavy error correction. Small tape defects do not cause problems. Look at a Hi-8 recording (8mm tape) and a DV recording (6mm tape) and you know that the combination of digital data and error correction is working even with a physically inferior tape format. Sony has all the reasons in the world to tell us DVCam delivers a better picture and they don't. That should tell us something right there. There is no picture quality difference between the two recording formats. Remember, the data format is the same in DV and DVCam. Anty true differences are in pre or post handling of the signal. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

May 22nd, 2003, 02:11 PM	#72
Garret Ambrosio Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Vallejo, CA Posts: 263	I agree Mike, but what if defects on the tape causes a one to be read as a zero by the head because it simply can not read the value. A minor defect may cause the head to read the wrong value when reading the tape. Furthermore error correction is not an exact science it simple replaces the values according to an algorythm that it has been program to follow. For instance streaming video through the internet. Even with an OC-12 or OC-3 connections you will intermintently receive errors in data transporting thorugh the net. This can also be caused by the errors in the interpreter on the other end as well, i.e. media player. Error correction will replace these error bits with bits that will follow the algorythm or with zeroes. From a distance or if it happens infrequent enough these errors are dismissed by the brain, but if it is done frequently, the brain will start seeing a difference that many times we can not explain, we just know or see. That si one of the reasons why if you stream with a larger pipe the picture looks better, it is because you can stream more data at one time minimizing the frequency of the errors. I know there are others and others that are more of a factor, but this is definitely one of the issues in streaming data. __________________ "USA Today has come out with a new survey - apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population." -David Letterman

May 22nd, 2003, 07:25 PM	#73
Andrew Plona New Boot Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New England Posts: 5	Stereo with PD150 How would I use my stereo microphone which has a stereo mini jack to record sound on a PD150? Would seem to me that a stereo mini female to 2 xlr males would do it. I looked at many places but nobody had such a thing.

May 22nd, 2003, 07:48 PM	#74
Stylianos Moschapidakis Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cambridge, MA/Crete, Greece Posts: 189	Andrew, I don't think there is such a thing as "a stereo mini female to 2 xlr males." Make your audio stereo in post. Check out this link; you'll find mini F to XLR M http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh1.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=CatalogActivator__Acatalog_html___CatID=4172___SID=F588D647BF0 __________________ Stelios G.M.

May 24th, 2003, 10:18 AM	#75
Lou Bruno Go Cycle Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 815	PD-150 being a more professional cam produces slightly less vivid colors than the VX2000-which is suppose to impress casual viewers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did you use the same monitors? The custom preset can be used to match the VX2000 to the PD150 via the saturation levels. __________________ Lou Bruno