170 or 250?
 

Hello All

Am considering getting a 2nd camera possibly a 170 (to add to my PDX10) and have come across a 250 at perhaps $1400 more than a 170

Increasingly I find myself filming events with more than one camera and I usually have one on a tripod as a good safety shot and one roaming.

It may be an an open question but would the 250 be worth considering?

The one feature that jumps out at me is being able to use the larger DVCAM tapes with greater tape length.

Also, I need to archive shows I film and each act is usually over 60 minutes long. It would be nice to put a complete show on one tape.

Any other benefits that would justify the price difference?

Are there 4 audio tracks available on the 250?

Regards P

specs are in the pdf located here:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professiona...=57127&d=10000

it says that, "in addition to the front XLR input, the DSR-250 comes with two XLR audio input connectors for connecting professional microphones."

The front XLR is generally used for the on cam mic (shotgun) and the rear 2 input for either handheld or wireless setups. Much the same as the PD150 which only has 2 XLR's the 250 has the 3 but the 2 rear inputs run to the same channel.
The 250 is VIRTUALLY the same camera as the 150 except of course its full size, can use full size tapes, has better iris control than the 150, easier controls for audio. Remember also that a full size camera also uses different batteries that can run upto $500 each plus a charger.
Pays your money, takes your choice
Don

You can only record two tracks at a time on the 250 although it does have a dub/insert facility if you run the audio in 32KHz mode. I use a 250 and a 150 and I like using the 250 more (nearly double the head hours!).
Hmmmm some reasons why....

It can record for over 4hours in DV mode(274mins).
Has manual controls(switchs/knobs) for a lot of items e.g. audio levels/gain/whitebalance etc that you can get to while shooting.
Standard XLR4 pin external power for those marathon shoots!
Better zoom action (using the rocker).
Better Iris control than the 150 (I think the 170 is now equal?)
Heaps better CRT viewfinder(DXF801) and you still have an LCD if you need it.
Looks the part (depending on who your clients are - might matter - might not).

Of course you still have your PDX10 for the shots the 250 is too big for. See if you can find one to have a play with and go from there.

I have the 250. Wonder when the 270 will come out? Don't really see the need for it, except for the new hood/lens cap.

Is there that much difference in the quality of 150 and 170?

Yes there is a big difference between the 150 and 170 in quality. The CCD's in the 170 are the new Advanced HAD chips that have a higher sensitivity and better signal to noise ratio than the 150. The 170 min illumination is 1 lux instead of 2. The LCD is brighter, the viewfinder is bigger (the magnifier is larger too) and the biggest thing for me is the simultaneous operation of the LCD and viewfinder. You don't know how many times I wanted to be able to see both!

HTH

Doug

Hiss problem solved ??
 

Thanks Guys

I will have a play with the 250 in my local store.

Interestingly, my dealer in the UK tells me that his stock of PD170s now have the HISS audio problem solved.

Should I believe him ?

Regards P

I didn't know the 170 has different chips than the 150.

That's not what Sony says. They say it is because of improvements in the DSP IRC. They said there were no CCD changes.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : That's not what Sony says. They say it is because of improvements in the DSP IRC. They said there were no CCD changes. -->>>

Hi Mike how ya doing?

When I talked to a Sony person at DV Expo he did state that the PD170 had the Advanced HAD CCD's (and all their literature states that as well) which is fairly recent technology. Are you saying that Sony put new technology onto an old chip design without doing anything to the chips? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

Doug

Yeah, all I want to know is under the exact same lighting level, are the pictures improved on the 170?

Actually I have a 250 and a VX2100, but haven't done any test. Seems pretty close to me.

<<<-- Originally posted by Doug Okamoto : <<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : That's not what Sony says. They say it is because of improvements in the DSP IRC. They said there were no CCD changes. -->>>

Hi Mike how ya doing?

When I talked to a Sony person at DV Expo he did state that the PD170 had the Advanced HAD CCD's (and all their literature states that as well) which is fairly recent technology. Are you saying that Sony put new technology onto an old chip design without doing anything to the chips? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

Doug -->>>

Doug,

I read that in a Sony press release. It could have been wrong info but they were very specific that the Optical Block had not changed and the improvements were downstream in the image processing bits.

From what I've seen in comparisons between the 150 and the 170, the difference is only in the level of noise present in the image. The 170 image is not lighter as you would expect if the CCDs actually got more sensitive. All Sony claims is that the noise floor is lower and that allows them to SPEC the camera at 1 Lux.

Mike's observation about it being a noise floor improvement jives with some low light experiments that I have done with my 2100 vs my 2000. The 2100 picture is not brighter in very low light, but it does have less noise. This noise advantage persists for a little while as small amounts of light are added, but then disappears as the light level increases to the point where the noise disappears on the 2000.

In that case, then couldn't some software processing on the computer improve the 150 footage? Would be nice, even though 150 is pretty good most of the time.

Yes, you can post process noisy video and improve its appearance. For example, applying the "deflicker" setting to a clip in Premiere will remove noise at the expense of some blurring of the horizontal edges. There are specialty software programs that do this even more effectively for still pictures using custom noise profiles for each type of digital camera. They seem to work somewhat better than running a simple noise filter in Photoshop. (They remove noise without getting as much blurring of the edges as you do with simple filters.) Perhaps Sony is doing something along this line, using the noise characteristics of the sensors to eliminate noise to the greatest extent possible. I'm sure a similar thing could be done in post processing. However, the amount of time that it might take to do this sophisticated processing frame by frame might be exhorbitant.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus :
Doug,

I read that in a Sony press release. It could have been wrong info but they were very specific that the Optical Block had not changed and the improvements were downstream in the image processing bits.

From what I've seen in comparisons between the 150 and the 170, the difference is only in the level of noise present in the image. The 170 image is not lighter as you would expect if the CCDs actually got more sensitive. All Sony claims is that the noise floor is lower and that allows them to SPEC the camera at 1 Lux. -->>>

Hey Mike,
I found this http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/ModelInfo?m=0&sm=0&p=2&sp=11&id=71949 which is part of why the water was muddied for me on this issue. The web page really makes it sound like the chips are new but I also read this "Yoshi Nishimura, Camcorder Product Manager for Sony stated "The CCD specifications are the same, the only difference is that we improved the sensitivity of the CCD itself. The improvement was made by improving the process in making the CCD... Since we've been making the CCD for more than a couple of years, the CCD factory was able to improve the sensitivity so that we can change our low light capability from 2 lux to 1 lux." This excerpt is from http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/sony-dcr-vx2100-announcement-10_07_03.htm

So I guess the only conclusion I can make now is that the CCD's in the PD170 have been "tweeked" with the Advanced HAD technology to increase signal to noise ratio and sensitivity. Is this a valid conclusion?

Thanks Mike, and the rest of you for helping me get this clear in my head (I think at least...!)

Doug

Thanks for the link, Doug.

I'm guessing that what they did, then, is up the CCD sensitivity and then drop the overall gain so that at equivalent exposures, the new camera exhibits less noise, not a brighter image.

I cannot find a Sony reference to the 'not-a-new-CCD' comments so new CCD it is.

What I find interesting is that they elected to not give us a brighter image but an image with lower noise. Making certain that the camera will still beat the DSR-300 and 370 (don't know about the 390) in low light situations because of the lower noise figure. My 150 and 300 don't intercut at the lowest possible light levels because the noise of the 300 is WAY more than the 150.

No problem Mike, you made me really look into this issue instead of taking in the company rhetoric. It all depends on how you split the hairs (and apparently Sony wants it both ways!) It's an old chip with a 'little bit' of enhancement. So is it really new or not? It all depends on how you look at it.

I think that Sony didn't increase the brightness of the CCD so that it wouldn't tick off the 'big boys' that bought their 390L's and 570WSL's. Still keeping the camera in the "prosumer" market but making it so that the ENG boys would love it. I happen to love it. 90% of what I do is without enhanced lighting and even the DVX100a doesn't come close in minimal lighting. I'm just waiting until NAB to pick up mine. Just wondering what Sony will do with the DSR250...

Doug

250? Good question.

Question is what are some of us gonna do if Sony discontinued the 250?

Getting used to the shoulder-mount, what is the next choice?

$10k is too steep, no matter how good the 370 is. In fact, 250's 2LUX is more than enough for wedding.

BTW,

I'm expecting that a 270 will be introduced at NAB.

I have no insider information but it seems to follow, doesn't it?

So what's the upgrade from 250 aside from 1 lux and the LCD display? Nice if they put a mechanical zoom and focus. Another nice upgrade is a true progressive mode at 30P, not like 15P.

I went through the same comparisons when I got a DSR250 about 3 or so years ago. There were several reasons I got the 250 over the 150 (now 170). First was because it was a shoulder mount camera, second it has the standard 801 series high res viewfinder used on other professional Sony cameras, third, it uses full size cassettes, and fourth it uses the same batteries, so I could share the batteries and charger from the DSR500.

Having said that, on occasion there is a situation in which I would like to have a PD150/170. If you remove the lens hood from the 150, it looks more like a consumer camera, and you can wander around and get hand held shots with no hassle. And, it's easy to mount the camera, for example, from a lighting grid to shoot straight down on something. You can also stick it on a beanbag between the steering wheel and windshield of a car and get a shot looking straight back at the driver. So there are good reasons to have a smaller camera too. On the other hand, it's easier to get steadier hand held shots with a shoulder mount camera, in most cases.

One of the posts above mentioned the fact that the 250 uses professional batteries, which I consider a positive thing, but others might consider that negative. I have 6 BPL40's, which cost about $280 apiece, and the charger was about $550. I need that many for an all day shoot without power with the DSR500. But, the DSR250 can get by all day with just two batteries. It really doesn't require much power compared to most other cameras I've used.

Another positive thing about the smaller 170 is that you can use it with the cheaper stabilizing and jib rigs because of its lighter weight. However, when you compare the 250 to a camera like the DSR500/570, it is significantly lighter and you can drop down from the heavier duty stabilizers, though not as far down as you can with the smaller camera.

In a perfect world a guy could have both the 150/170 and the 250. But if you have to pick one, the only real answer is that it depends on what you do most of the time and what you need.

I use a DSR-300, PD150, & PC110. Each have their places and I wouldn't want to be without any of them. Love the 110 on a boom! Very little wind effects with it among other pluses.

Hey Bill, haven't you consider getting some bigger batteries like BP-M100? Allegedly 250% of BP-L40. Very tempting.

No, I'm happy having more smaller batteries. The only times I've had to shoot for a run longer than the battery lasts is usually in the studio, and I use AC. However, if I had it to do over again, I'd spend a little more and get the IDX nestable ones. You can stack two if you need to.