Is it realistic when people say they NEVER have a dropout? at DVinfo.net

Glen Elliott · July 1st, 2004, 05:06 PM

Was finishing capturing footage from a recent shoot today and during playback I noticed a single frame that had some grey mosaic blocks on it. Granted: 1.It was incredibly hot and humid and 2. I didn't capture it on the camera it was shot (my PD-170) I captured it on my TRV-33.

It got me thinking....is it realistic when people say they NEVER get drop-outs. Some of these people do a lot more shooting than me. I shoot maybe 5-8 weddings a year and a few extraneous stuff. If it IS indeed realistic to NEVER get a singel drop-out ...what am I doing wrong? Thanks in advance

Imran Zaidi · July 1st, 2004, 05:31 PM

You really shouldn't get any mosaics. If you did, it's possible the deck/camera you used to grab the footage may need a cleaning. If that is indeed the problem, then cleaning it and recapturing should yield a perfect grab.

I always run my cleaner tape through my little cam that I use for capturing before I do any captures, and I don't think I've ever had a capture issue like that or a dropped frame. Knock on wood...

Mike Rehmus · July 1st, 2004, 06:27 PM

It is certainly possible that people (including myself) never get dropouts if we don't see them. I've never seen one from my footage shot on my cameras.

That certainly doesn't mean there isn't a dropout in all the footage I have stored.

But I don't think I've had a dropout since I got rid of my FAST analog editing system.

Michael Wisniewski · July 1st, 2004, 06:36 PM

I've been able to fix what I thought were dropouts/damaged recordings by getting rid of the slack in the tape. I fully fast forward then rewind the tape. I also do this to tapes before I shoot something that is important. Can't prove that it works, just being safe.

In about 5 years, I've only had 1 real drop out that I noticed - and that was on a tape that I constantly re-use for rehearsals.

Glen Elliott · July 1st, 2004, 09:28 PM

I mean it's not a bad drop-out if that makes sense- Ive seen some that last several frames. It's a quick blip- very easy to miss. Just annoying because my PD-170 is brand new and the TRV-33 that I captured it on is BRAND-NEW...only had like 3 tapes run through it!

Tony Zubrowski · July 2nd, 2004, 07:31 PM

I think that unpacking the tape definitely helps to avoid dropouts, although I can't prove it. Fast Forwarding and then rewinding the tape adjusts it to the cams tension which will keep the tape moving smoothly.

Tom Hardwick · July 3rd, 2004, 06:23 AM

The instructions that comje with the DSR-11 insist that you should tension the tape and remove any slack by turning the little Mini DV tape spindles before inserting the tape. Must admit I never bother not being aflicted by dropouts (much) but on the odd occasion I've seen them I've also remembered that I've not taken Sony's advice about tensioning the little spools, so it must be my fault.

tom.

Ray Echevers · July 3rd, 2004, 07:59 AM

Well I set FCP4 so that it warns me if there is a dropout while capturing, and so far haven't had a dropout.(knock on wood)

Glen Elliott · July 3rd, 2004, 09:03 AM

It's impossible for an NLE to warn you of a "drop-out"....a dropped frame YES but not a drop OUT. Big difference.

On another note after looking at the footage some more the dropout seems to be right at the exact moment the speaker at the podium turns the mic on. Could be coincidence- but COULD it be that the wirless mic system the room was using interfered with the camera? I know it's a stretch but that drop out is dead on the exact frame the mic is turned on.

Tom Hardwick · July 3rd, 2004, 09:04 AM

You're most probably describing dropped frames, Ray - a whole different ball park to dropouts. A dropped frame is like having hundreds and thousands of dropouts occuring all at the same time.

Law Tyler · July 4th, 2004, 07:23 AM

Could these drop-outs be actually somebody accidentally hitting the "photo" button during the shoot? Did that once myself.

They should really get rid of the photo button, or at least allow it to be disable in the settings.

Glen Elliott · July 4th, 2004, 08:50 AM

No- the camera was secured on a tripod and my hand was on the pan handle not even touching the cam. But I agree- why should a high-end camera like the PD-170 have such a cheesy consumer option as a "photo" button?! The XL1-s has one too.

Ray Echevers · July 4th, 2004, 10:53 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Hardwick : You're most probably describing dropped frames, Ray - a whole different ball park to dropouts. A dropped frame is like having hundreds and thousands of dropouts occuring all at the same time. -->>>

I got confused, but yeah, I know what you guys are talking about now.
When i've viewed all of my footage, i haven't noticed any dropouts or anything out of the norm.
And of course, no dropped frames in FCP4 yet too.

Law Tyler · July 5th, 2004, 06:19 PM

Glen, thanks for the support.

NOW HEAR THIS, we know you manufacturers are watching this site, please GET RID of that cheesy (as Glen said) PHOTO button.

Occasionally I touch it when I go from tripod to shoulder, and sometimes just trying to adjust the iris switch going to the wrong side of the rocker zoom on the DSR-250.

At least make it disable-lable in the settings.

Thank you.

Tom Hardwick · July 6th, 2004, 01:08 AM

Actually to maintain timecode continuity I've found the photo button very useful. At the end of any shot you know you'll want to rewind and take a look at (the talent love this and it can boost their confidence enormously), simply push the photo button. Then having reviewed the shot you can now push the stop button anywhere in that 7 seconds of still frame, and continue recording from there.

You know you've got an uninterrupted timecode, you know you've erased nothing valuable and the talent's beaming.

tom.

July 1st, 2004, 05:06 PM	#1
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Is it realistic when people say they NEVER have a dropout? Was finishing capturing footage from a recent shoot today and during playback I noticed a single frame that had some grey mosaic blocks on it. Granted: 1.It was incredibly hot and humid and 2. I didn't capture it on the camera it was shot (my PD-170) I captured it on my TRV-33. It got me thinking....is it realistic when people say they NEVER get drop-outs. Some of these people do a lot more shooting than me. I shoot maybe 5-8 weddings a year and a few extraneous stuff. If it IS indeed realistic to NEVER get a singel drop-out ...what am I doing wrong? Thanks in advance

July 1st, 2004, 06:27 PM	#3
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	It is certainly possible that people (including myself) never get dropouts if we don't see them. I've never seen one from my footage shot on my cameras. That certainly doesn't mean there isn't a dropout in all the footage I have stored. But I don't think I've had a dropout since I got rid of my FAST analog editing system. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

July 2nd, 2004, 07:31 PM	#6
Tony Zubrowski Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 32	I think that unpacking the tape definitely helps to avoid dropouts, although I can't prove it. Fast Forwarding and then rewinding the tape adjusts it to the cams tension which will keep the tape moving smoothly. __________________ Tony

July 3rd, 2004, 07:59 AM	#8
Ray Echevers Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 148	Well I set FCP4 so that it warns me if there is a dropout while capturing, and so far haven't had a dropout.(knock on wood) __________________ Sony VX-1000 G5 1.8 dual 91 Turbo MR2

July 4th, 2004, 10:53 AM	#13
Ray Echevers Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 148	<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Hardwick : You're most probably describing dropped frames, Ray - a whole different ball park to dropouts. A dropped frame is like having hundreds and thousands of dropouts occuring all at the same time. -->>> I got confused, but yeah, I know what you guys are talking about now. When i've viewed all of my footage, i haven't noticed any dropouts or anything out of the norm. And of course, no dropped frames in FCP4 yet too. __________________ Sony VX-1000 G5 1.8 dual 91 Turbo MR2

July 1st, 2004, 05:31 PM	#2
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	You really shouldn't get any mosaics. If you did, it's possible the deck/camera you used to grab the footage may need a cleaning. If that is indeed the problem, then cleaning it and recapturing should yield a perfect grab. I always run my cleaner tape through my little cam that I use for capturing before I do any captures, and I don't think I've ever had a capture issue like that or a dropped frame. Knock on wood...

July 1st, 2004, 06:36 PM	#4
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	I've been able to fix what I thought were dropouts/damaged recordings by getting rid of the slack in the tape. I fully fast forward then rewind the tape. I also do this to tapes before I shoot something that is important. Can't prove that it works, just being safe. In about 5 years, I've only had 1 real drop out that I noticed - and that was on a tape that I constantly re-use for rehearsals.

July 1st, 2004, 09:28 PM	#5
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	I mean it's not a bad drop-out if that makes sense- Ive seen some that last several frames. It's a quick blip- very easy to miss. Just annoying because my PD-170 is brand new and the TRV-33 that I captured it on is BRAND-NEW...only had like 3 tapes run through it!

July 3rd, 2004, 06:23 AM	#7
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	The instructions that comje with the DSR-11 insist that you should tension the tape and remove any slack by turning the little Mini DV tape spindles before inserting the tape. Must admit I never bother not being aflicted by dropouts (much) but on the odd occasion I've seen them I've also remembered that I've not taken Sony's advice about tensioning the little spools, so it must be my fault. tom.

July 3rd, 2004, 09:03 AM	#9
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	It's impossible for an NLE to warn you of a "drop-out"....a dropped frame YES but not a drop OUT. Big difference. On another note after looking at the footage some more the dropout seems to be right at the exact moment the speaker at the podium turns the mic on. Could be coincidence- but COULD it be that the wirless mic system the room was using interfered with the camera? I know it's a stretch but that drop out is dead on the exact frame the mic is turned on.

July 3rd, 2004, 09:04 AM	#10
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	You're most probably describing dropped frames, Ray - a whole different ball park to dropouts. A dropped frame is like having hundreds and thousands of dropouts occuring all at the same time.

July 4th, 2004, 07:23 AM	#11
Law Tyler Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 204	Could these drop-outs be actually somebody accidentally hitting the "photo" button during the shoot? Did that once myself. They should really get rid of the photo button, or at least allow it to be disable in the settings.

July 4th, 2004, 08:50 AM	#12
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	No- the camera was secured on a tripod and my hand was on the pan handle not even touching the cam. But I agree- why should a high-end camera like the PD-170 have such a cheesy consumer option as a "photo" button?! The XL1-s has one too.

July 5th, 2004, 06:19 PM	#14
Law Tyler Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 204	Glen, thanks for the support. NOW HEAR THIS, we know you manufacturers are watching this site, please GET RID of that cheesy (as Glen said) PHOTO button. Occasionally I touch it when I go from tripod to shoulder, and sometimes just trying to adjust the iris switch going to the wrong side of the rocker zoom on the DSR-250. At least make it disable-lable in the settings. Thank you.

July 6th, 2004, 01:08 AM	#15
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Actually to maintain timecode continuity I've found the photo button very useful. At the end of any shot you know you'll want to rewind and take a look at (the talent love this and it can boost their confidence enormously), simply push the photo button. Then having reviewed the shot you can now push the stop button anywhere in that 7 seconds of still frame, and continue recording from there. You know you've got an uninterrupted timecode, you know you've erased nothing valuable and the talent's beaming. tom.