Do you really need DVCam? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony VX2100 / PD170 / PDX10 Companion

Sony VX2100 / PD170 / PDX10 Companion
Topics also include Sony's TRV950, VX2000, PD150 & DSR250 family.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 2nd, 2002, 02:19 PM   #1
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vallejo, California
Posts: 4,049
Do you really need DVCam?

I see a lot of postings that extol the virtues of DVCam and why the folks think that it is worth extra money.

Here is a radical statement.

In 99 out of 100 times, DVCam, for users of NLE systems, will have absolutely no advantage.

So why was DVCam invented?

To support the TV network guys who up until very recently, were 100% linear editing users (for ENG, not the shows) and therefore tended to be very hard on the tape. Lots of shuttling back and forth at high speeds.

That is not our environment. First of all, the cameras and decks that we use are quite gentle with the tape. Unless we paid for the $10,000 level of decks that have really fast tape handling.

Our tapes get run through the camcorder a few times, maybe we look at recent footage and then we put it in a VTR or leave it in the camera for transfer to the NLE. The NLE may run the tape once or twice to capture the clips. That's it. No major stress on the tape.

At last December's DVExpo, I was talking to a Sony rep with regard to the DSR370 vs the Panasonic 2000. One of his talking points in favor of the Sony was the DVCam format. I told him that I did not think it was a serious benefit for a NLE user. He fought a bit and finally agreed that it is NOT. I was able to get another Sony rep to admit that at the last NAB too.

The only item that I like with DVCam is the locked audio. That means that I don't have the problems that some have where the camera manufacturer has gotten creative with the audio end of the DV format.

But DV can have locked audio too. The new JVC DV5000 proves that. But, at least with Sony DV, I've never had a problem with 'NS' video as they label it on my PD-150 and DSR-20.

So the bottom line in my operation is that I only use DVCam where I don't have a choice. In my DSR-20. And maybe that isn't all bad because that is where I print the stuff I want to archive.

But for all other operations, DVCam is, in my estimation, FOR MY TYPE OF WORK, just a waste of tape.

Your mileage may vary.
__________________
Mike Rehmus
Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!
Mike Rehmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2002, 11:07 PM   #2
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Delhi, India
Posts: 107
Mike:
Interesting that the Sony rep actually agreed with you - my experience has been that the rep types are so hypnotized by their own mumbo-jumbo that they'll resist agreeing on the colour of their shoes if they can help it :-)
Having said that, I couldn't agree with you more: I think the actual lines between DVCAM and DV are so blurred in terms of advantages and disdvantages, that they practically don't exist (at least for me). About the only thing I could say for DVCAM is that the higher tape speed and the DVCAM tape itself make dropouts a little rarer, but that's not - as you've pointed out - a very serious consequence when you're not stressing the tape too much.
A couple of questions:
1. <<But for all other operations, DVCam is, in my estimation, FOR MY TYPE OF WORK, just a waste of tape.>>
What IS your type of work? :-)

2. I think you've brought up something I was asking about on another thread: Am I correct in understanding that you shoot DV, edit non-linear and output to DVCAM? Do you need any specific codecs or hardware to do that, or is it just a matter of connecting your DSR-20 and printing to tape on a DVCAM tape? (I'm asking because I'm setting up an NLE right now, and was considering the DSR-11 Sony - also DVCAM - as the editing VTR. My only concern is whether I can output my DV input to the NLE to a DVCAM output to the VTR...)

3. Where unlocked audio is concerned, I believe most people deal with the Canon cameras' audio drift by simple checking the appropriate options in FCP 3 to correct for the drift. So I guess that's not a great problem, either.

Best,
Ram
Ram Nagarajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2002, 11:34 PM   #3
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vallejo, California
Posts: 4,049
I do a range of work:

- Weddings
- Tape acting classes for the local community college theatre 2X a week
- Produce an annual tape for the local police deparment
- Tape Model Engineering exhibitions and sell the tapes through distributors
- Produce how-to tapes on machine shop technology and sell the tapes through distributors
- Industrial videos (and specific videos to support my wife's sales presentations) (hey, I get to enjoy her commission too!)
- Video projects for city and county government

Pro-Bono videos on missing children, community interest subjects high-school drunk-driving (Every 15 minutes) and training local teenagers to shoot and edit video.

Just quit my job as Cinema and TV Lab Technician for the community college as it was getting in the way of my video work.

All my work is done on a Canopus DVRexRT with RexEdit and Photoshop and After Effects PB.

--------------------------

DV and DVCam are identical after the signal leaves the tape. It is all DV at that point. Sony makes an issue of locked video which is, again, quite important if one is using a linear editing system and a non-issue in a NLE environment.

If the recording device is DVCam, it does all the work. You can just sit back and pay for the extra and more expensive tape as I do with the DSR-20. But you can bet that I burn a lot of miniDV tapes through the VTR since a lot of work is less than 40 minutes.

Other than the miniDV tapes, I almost always buy the 184 minute DVCam tapes for the big projects. They are almost always large enough (so far)

Interesting that JVC is locking the video on their new DV2000 DV camera.
__________________
Mike Rehmus
Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!
Mike Rehmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2002, 02:14 AM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Delhi, India
Posts: 107
Mike, thanks for the clarifications. A lot of my work is low budget community awareness generation and development communication; so I guess our work parallels quite a bit.
I guess the JVC move towards locked video runs on the I'll-plug-the-fashion-and-hope-it-catches-on system that many of the manufacturers work on (remember the UPTO 20X DIGITAL ZOOM! stcikers on some of the smaller digital handycams? :-) )
Unless, of course, there's something more to it that we don't know about yet...
Best,
Ram
Ram Nagarajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2002, 07:54 AM   #5
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vallejo, California
Posts: 4,049
I should have said locked audio, not video
__________________
Mike Rehmus
Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!
Mike Rehmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2002, 11:29 AM   #6
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 6,781
Mike:

I agree with everything you said, in my experience. I have the same output setup as you (DSR-20) and the things I appreciate the most is the robust transport which makes rewinding/fast forwarding a breeze (putting multiple programs on a 124 or 184 minute tape, there is much of this), plus the locked audio since the Xl1 is so pesky sync-wise to begin with. I do have occasional DSR-11 envy pricewise, but it wasn't available when I bought my 20 and I think I would miss the front panel display.
__________________
Charles Papert
www.charlespapert.com
Charles Papert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2002, 12:22 PM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Delhi, India
Posts: 107
Charles:
Yes, the price for the DSR-11 does make a difference, doesn't it? I know I'd prefer the DSR-20, but my present budget will not accomodate one. I felt the absence of a VU for audio on the DSR-11 front panel was a bit off-putting, but I'm informed it's quite trustworthy in that respect: Levels end up quite OK if you've done a good job setting them on the NLE. Guess I'll be content with the DSR-11, considering that a friend of mine works with a Mini DV Sony Video Walkman and laments the absence of the DVCAM option on his equipment!
Also: I believe Sony's now supplying the DSR-27 as the DSR-20's successor. Anyone used that yet? Any major differences from the DSR-20?
Ram
Ram Nagarajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2002, 04:28 PM   #8
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vallejo, California
Posts: 4,049
It is actually the DSR-25.

270 minute max recording time because it is both DV and DVCam

2" front panel LCD that allows a bit better setup plus a video image. Can display working images, audio level and system status while editing

NTSC and PAL switchable

Street price around $3700?

Looks like it may not accept 12VDC power, unlike the DSR-20
__________________
Mike Rehmus
Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!
Mike Rehmus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2002, 11:49 PM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Delhi, India
Posts: 107
Oops, yes, of course, it's the DSR-25...the 7 crept into my head because the same mailer contained information the the successor to the DSR-300 camcorder, the DSR-370. *Apologies*
Thanks, Mike!
Ram
Ram Nagarajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2002, 02:14 AM   #10
Parkingtigers
 
Posts: n/a
Interesting reading mike, thanks.

I guess that those of us looking for paying gigs in the future might find this useful when coming up against someone that looks down on mini-dv as inferior. Its very reassuring to a (lost and confused) newcomer like myself that the tapes are not really that different for the most part.

Thats *one* less thing to worry about. Only one though.....

Adrian
  Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2002, 04:09 AM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 123
yes Mike, if using NLE that 15micron track pitch does'nt give much advantage over 10micron. I have had only one bad example from years ago, then VX1000 after 1 hour working in -15 C degrees started to give block errors. After that i have recommended to use DVCAM in cold. I'm not even sure, maybe new cameras have improved mechanics and would work fine.
If Sony reps speak about DVCAM as a mayor advantage, they are smarter than Sony designers;) All new low-end pro cameras and VTR-s have DV recording, i'm sure Sony had good reason for adding this feature.
In linear editing DVCAM has some big advantages, but mostly that is not the case.

regards, Margus
Margus Kivilaan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4th, 2002, 12:19 PM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 182
While straight dv has been nearly perfect for me (with my single maxell brand), the real reason I use it is because of the longer record time. I just can't help but like the idea of more room for error correction of dvcam. If I know it's a short run, I'll stick with dvcam.

I still use D8 walkman decks via firewire "capture." I will use this over the xl1's deck as it too has a faster and wider track and pitch. Saves the camcorder's drive as well. I just have had the best luck with little VTRs.

It's about doing the best you can to save your butt. If it's just shooting for home use, yeah, I'd keep with straight dv. But if there's any money on the line (or really rare footage) I'm glad dvcam exists.

Also, I admit that I'm a "long" capture kind of editor. I'll take 30minutes at a crack. If you batch capture, you are jogging around a bit. And the drum is cranking pretty fast over a small area. I thought I read 15-20 plays was the goal of dv, 50-100 plays for dvcam. So if you pause the tape for 20 seconds, you're 600 duty cycles (as one frame is normally contacted for about 1/30th sec.....30*20=600).

My dvcpro deck stops its paused tape (a little better than dvcam still) at user settings of .5sec, 5sec, 10sec, 30sec, 1min, 2min. Tell me they aren't worried about the tape being beaten. When you use miniDV tapes the timer is in default at 10 seconds. So there you go, folks. 10 Seconds of pause or it's getting risky in their unstated opinion.

And did you ever look at that little tape? That's one reason I think D8 gets a bum rap. More tape can't be bad and dv25 data is dv25 data. It's not like hard disk recorders which have fixed parts and tight tolerances. This is tape to head using removeable media which isn't nearly as tight. 10 friggen microns? Don't shoot in a smokey bar, okay?
__________________
< >< . . . . . < >< . . . . . < ><
John Klein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 5th, 2002, 08:13 AM   #13
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 123
oops again

<that 15micron track pitch does'nt give much advantage over 10micron>

sorry, it's 15 micrometers and 10 micrometers

Margus
Margus Kivilaan is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony VX2100 / PD170 / PDX10 Companion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:23 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network