Auto Shutter Speed on PD170 Menu

Dale Paterson · March 21st, 2006, 01:21 AM

Tom,

Thanks for pointing out my error (I have edited the message in a crass attempt to avoid embarassment - I need sleep)!

Just as a matter of interest though - I live in South Africa (PAL) - so my VX2100E defaults to 1/50 sec shutter speed (when auto shutter is turned off). Would the NTSC versions of the VX2100/PD150/PD170 default to 1/50 sec or 1/60 sec? Just for my own info.

Regards,

Dale.

Tom Hardwick · March 21st, 2006, 01:52 AM

Ken, having shot many stage shows I'd suggest you modify your settings. Use manual focus yes, as when the lights come up at the start of a new scene the camera will be hunting for the curtains. Use auto audio settings because as a one man band you simply won't be able to ride the peaks of laughter and clapping.

Use the 'spotlight' mode. This is a very intelligent mode (unlike the backlight mode) and will cover you when the lighting director gets too dramatic. Use manual - artificial - w'bal as you suggest. And if you've got one - get an omni radio mic up there near the stage. Set 1/50th shutter speed.

Dale - I see your edit. Now my answer looks crap. :)
Yes, the NTSC default is indeed 1/60th sec/frame.

tom.

Ken McGrath · March 21st, 2006, 06:51 PM

Thanks Tom, I hadn't considered using the spotlight mode. I will take your advice. Yes, I have a couple of Sennheiser wireless xmit/rx setups coupled with AT897's (these go into my Panasonic camera). I also (I am using the PD170 and a Panasonic DVX100a) will use the on-camera mic that came with the PD170 for ambient and backup for the shotguns. Even using spotlight mode I should probably lock the exposure once set, don't you think (e.g., 1/60 sec shutter, iris around 3-4 range to keep depth of field reasonably deep and nearer to sweet spot of the lens, and set the gain as required to get these iris and shutter values).

J. Stephen McDonald · March 21st, 2006, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Rehmus

That is like asking Sony why their name is Sony. It just is.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/Corpora...ory/index.html

Mike Rehmus · March 21st, 2006, 08:49 PM

There had to be somebody who knew!

They've grown a long way from their roots.

Tom Hardwick · March 22nd, 2006, 02:35 AM

Ken, you can't use locked exposure in the spotlight mode - go and try it. It's easy to test it and see how well it works. If you have a lit bare bulb hanging in a darkened room you can position this in the corner of the v'finder frame. In auto exposure mode the bulb will be blown out - completely over-exposed.

In the Spotlight mode the bulb will have the correct exposure, so that you can read the writing ''Philips 240 v 60w'' or whatever. IF you now train your camera at a very evenly lit surface and toggle the spotlight mode on and off, you'll see that the two exposures are identical.

This is why the mode is so intelligent (4.5 stops of intelligence) and why it's such a lifesaver to stage-filmers. Lighting directors invariably love to up the dynamic range to add 'ooomph' to their shows, but this is death to the DVD.

If at all possible get to have a quiet word with said lighting person, explain that the DVD (seen by far more people than are sitting on seats) will show his work in a much better light (ha!) if lighting contrasts are softened slightly.

tom.

Tom Hardwick · March 22nd, 2006, 02:37 AM

and you might look here...
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...104#post452104

Ken McGrath · March 22nd, 2006, 09:22 AM

Thanks again, Tom. Yes, I tried it, and it worked as you stated. If I lock shutter at 1/60 (good/bad idea?) and use spotlight exposure mode, I will be varying only the gain and iris automatically, correct? And, since the audio will be on auto, maybe this will be a lot easier than I anticipated!

Tom Hardwick · March 22nd, 2006, 10:47 AM

That's correct. Turn the auto shutter off, have 60 visible (without the grey rectangle around it), have the w/bal bulb visible and have the spotlight icon displayed too. As you say, audio on limiter and you're away.

All you have to worry about now is kids kicking the sender units, composure, framing, tape changing, focus and zooming.

tom.

Ken McGrath · March 22nd, 2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

That's correct. Turn the auto shutter off, have 60 visible (without the grey rectangle around it), have the w/bal bulb visible and have the spotlight icon displayed too. As you say, audio on limiter and you're away.

All you have to worry about now is kids kicking the sender units, composure, framing, tape changing, focus and zooming.

tom.

Thanks again, you have been a great help. And I think we may have the same offbeat sense of humor!

Ken McGrath · March 23rd, 2006, 11:16 AM

[QUOTE=Tom Hardwick]The best advice I can give is to set auto shutter to off in the menu and simply forget about it. Then remember that if you don't have the icon displayed in your v'finder, then it'll be in auto. So no w'bal symbol visible? Then it's in auto.

QUOTE]

One last clarification before I put this Auto Shutter Menu setting to bed. Suppose you set the menu switch of "off". Then it does not auto-adjust shutter speed in full auto mode, but is there a way to set the shutter speed that is uses, or does it always use 1/60 sec (NTSC)?

Mike Rehmus · March 23rd, 2006, 11:43 AM

Select shutter speed on the button in the back and adjust with the thumbwheel as you can any of the other settings with buttons back there.

Ken McGrath · March 23rd, 2006, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Rehmus

Select shutter speed on the button in the back and adjust with the thumbwheel as you can any of the other settings with buttons back there.

Yes Mike, I understand that, but when you turn auto shutter off in the menu, and when you are in full auto mode, what is the shutter speed (even though it is fixed at some value). Is there a way to set what value it is fixed at (in full auto mode). I assume it is at 1/60 sec by default, but can it be adjusted to another value (in full auto mode).

Mike Rehmus · March 23rd, 2006, 10:06 PM

I do not believe you can see any of the settings in full auto. I do believe NTSC cameras are locked at 1/60th in that mode. I always locked the shutter speed at the back of the camera and allowed aperature to change.

That is, if you need the SP to stay at 1/60, you can set just that to be fixed through the back button and leave aperature in auto. The camera, IIRC, will operate aperature and gain to set exposure. But you may already know that.

Dale Paterson · March 23rd, 2006, 11:39 PM

Hi Ken,

At the risk of repeating what has already been said let me try and clarify it for you (I do this because this thing also had me going for a while and I sometimes I did not quite get what people were telling me).

When in 'Full Auto':

If the 'Auto Shutter' is 'Off' - the shutter speed is fixed to 1/60 in your case or 1/50 in the case of a PAL camera and there is no way to change this.

In addition to the above neither the current setting of the 'Auto Shutter' option i.e. 'On' or 'Off', or the actual shutter speed, is displayed anywhere. The only way to check that it is indeed fixed at 1/60 is to replay your footage with the 'Date/Cam' information being displayed.

Iris, Gain, WB, etc. are adjusted automatically and their values can also only be seen when replaying your footage with the 'Date/Cam' information being displayed.

When in 'Manual' i.e. slider in the middle:

You can set shutter speed to whatever you want and its value will be displayed either by using 'Shutter Speed' option or 'Automatic Exposure' with 'Shutter Speed Priority'.

Same for Iris, Gain, WB, etc. etc.

A little trick that I taught myself - it is possible to fix both the aperture and shutter speed manually without using AE. Camera in 'Manual' mode, set aperture first manually and then shutter speed manually.

Be careful using this though as it is easy to overexpose depending on your subject matter but it does give you full manual control much like the FX1.

Hope this is clearer.

Regards,

Dale.

March 21st, 2006, 08:49 PM	#20
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	There had to be somebody who knew! They've grown a long way from their roots. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

March 23rd, 2006, 11:43 AM	#27
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Select shutter speed on the button in the back and adjust with the thumbwheel as you can any of the other settings with buttons back there. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

March 23rd, 2006, 10:06 PM	#29
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	I do not believe you can see any of the settings in full auto. I do believe NTSC cameras are locked at 1/60th in that mode. I always locked the shutter speed at the back of the camera and allowed aperature to change. That is, if you need the SP to stay at 1/60, you can set just that to be fixed through the back button and leave aperature in auto. The camera, IIRC, will operate aperature and gain to set exposure. But you may already know that. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

March 21st, 2006, 01:21 AM	#16
Dale Paterson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 200	Tom, Thanks for pointing out my error (I have edited the message in a crass attempt to avoid embarassment - I need sleep)! Just as a matter of interest though - I live in South Africa (PAL) - so my VX2100E defaults to 1/50 sec shutter speed (when auto shutter is turned off). Would the NTSC versions of the VX2100/PD150/PD170 default to 1/50 sec or 1/60 sec? Just for my own info. Regards, Dale.

March 21st, 2006, 01:52 AM	#17
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Ken, having shot many stage shows I'd suggest you modify your settings. Use manual focus yes, as when the lights come up at the start of a new scene the camera will be hunting for the curtains. Use auto audio settings because as a one man band you simply won't be able to ride the peaks of laughter and clapping. Use the 'spotlight' mode. This is a very intelligent mode (unlike the backlight mode) and will cover you when the lighting director gets too dramatic. Use manual - artificial - w'bal as you suggest. And if you've got one - get an omni radio mic up there near the stage. Set 1/50th shutter speed. Dale - I see your edit. Now my answer looks crap. :) Yes, the NTSC default is indeed 1/60th sec/frame. tom.

March 21st, 2006, 06:51 PM	#18
Ken McGrath Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Woodbridge, VA Posts: 57	Thanks Tom, I hadn't considered using the spotlight mode. I will take your advice. Yes, I have a couple of Sennheiser wireless xmit/rx setups coupled with AT897's (these go into my Panasonic camera). I also (I am using the PD170 and a Panasonic DVX100a) will use the on-camera mic that came with the PD170 for ambient and backup for the shotguns. Even using spotlight mode I should probably lock the exposure once set, don't you think (e.g., 1/60 sec shutter, iris around 3-4 range to keep depth of field reasonably deep and nearer to sweet spot of the lens, and set the gain as required to get these iris and shutter values).

March 22nd, 2006, 02:35 AM	#21
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Ken, you can't use locked exposure in the spotlight mode - go and try it. It's easy to test it and see how well it works. If you have a lit bare bulb hanging in a darkened room you can position this in the corner of the v'finder frame. In auto exposure mode the bulb will be blown out - completely over-exposed. In the Spotlight mode the bulb will have the correct exposure, so that you can read the writing ''Philips 240 v 60w'' or whatever. IF you now train your camera at a very evenly lit surface and toggle the spotlight mode on and off, you'll see that the two exposures are identical. This is why the mode is so intelligent (4.5 stops of intelligence) and why it's such a lifesaver to stage-filmers. Lighting directors invariably love to up the dynamic range to add 'ooomph' to their shows, but this is death to the DVD. If at all possible get to have a quiet word with said lighting person, explain that the DVD (seen by far more people than are sitting on seats) will show his work in a much better light (ha!) if lighting contrasts are softened slightly. tom.

March 22nd, 2006, 02:37 AM	#22
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	and you might look here... http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...104#post452104

March 22nd, 2006, 09:22 AM	#23
Ken McGrath Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Woodbridge, VA Posts: 57	Thanks again, Tom. Yes, I tried it, and it worked as you stated. If I lock shutter at 1/60 (good/bad idea?) and use spotlight exposure mode, I will be varying only the gain and iris automatically, correct? And, since the audio will be on auto, maybe this will be a lot easier than I anticipated!

March 22nd, 2006, 10:47 AM	#24
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	That's correct. Turn the auto shutter off, have 60 visible (without the grey rectangle around it), have the w/bal bulb visible and have the spotlight icon displayed too. As you say, audio on limiter and you're away. All you have to worry about now is kids kicking the sender units, composure, framing, tape changing, focus and zooming. tom.

March 23rd, 2006, 11:16 AM	#26
Ken McGrath Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Woodbridge, VA Posts: 57	[QUOTE=Tom Hardwick]The best advice I can give is to set auto shutter to off in the menu and simply forget about it. Then remember that if you don't have the icon displayed in your v'finder, then it'll be in auto. So no w'bal symbol visible? Then it's in auto. QUOTE] One last clarification before I put this Auto Shutter Menu setting to bed. Suppose you set the menu switch of "off". Then it does not auto-adjust shutter speed in full auto mode, but is there a way to set the shutter speed that is uses, or does it always use 1/60 sec (NTSC)?

March 23rd, 2006, 11:39 PM	#30
Dale Paterson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 200	Hi Ken, At the risk of repeating what has already been said let me try and clarify it for you (I do this because this thing also had me going for a while and I sometimes I did not quite get what people were telling me). When in 'Full Auto': If the 'Auto Shutter' is 'Off' - the shutter speed is fixed to 1/60 in your case or 1/50 in the case of a PAL camera and there is no way to change this. In addition to the above neither the current setting of the 'Auto Shutter' option i.e. 'On' or 'Off', or the actual shutter speed, is displayed anywhere. The only way to check that it is indeed fixed at 1/60 is to replay your footage with the 'Date/Cam' information being displayed. Iris, Gain, WB, etc. are adjusted automatically and their values can also only be seen when replaying your footage with the 'Date/Cam' information being displayed. When in 'Manual' i.e. slider in the middle: You can set shutter speed to whatever you want and its value will be displayed either by using 'Shutter Speed' option or 'Automatic Exposure' with 'Shutter Speed Priority'. Same for Iris, Gain, WB, etc. etc. A little trick that I taught myself - it is possible to fix both the aperture and shutter speed manually without using AE. Camera in 'Manual' mode, set aperture first manually and then shutter speed manually. Be careful using this though as it is easy to overexpose depending on your subject matter but it does give you full manual control much like the FX1. Hope this is clearer. Regards, Dale.