Auto Shutter. . . .what is it for? - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

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Sony VX2100 / PD170 / PDX10 Companion
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Old February 14th, 2003, 02:11 PM   #16
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"The shutter will be "held" only if you see the the setting indicated in the finder/lcd"... In auto mode you don't see anything prompted and the shutter is locked when "auto shtr" is "off" in the menu. Tom Hardwick states it rightly in another forum: "Setting Auto Shutter to "off" simply means that the shutter speed won't be varied in the auto mode. Auto shutter "on" means the camera can use any
shutter speed it likes; it can be any value,... "
Of course in the full manual mode (with the prompts visible) the menu settings overridden. So will be the auto shttr setting. Maybe I was misleading you with the AE-S which does do nothing as long as there is no shutter time being selected. So even with (only) AE-S on the screen the cam is still in auto.
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Old February 14th, 2003, 03:01 PM   #17
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And the beat goes on:
(Wayne quoted by Andre:) "The shutter will be "held" only if you see the the setting indicated in the finder/lcd"... In auto mode you don't see anything prompted and the shutter is locked when "auto shtr" is "off" in the menu.

What you say is true Andre, but you quoted me out of context. My original comment was: "In the "Auto Lock realease" mode (aka Manual) the "Auto Shutter" setting in the menu has no effect. The shutter will be "held" only if you see the setting indicated in the finder/lcd." My comment refered to to the Manual "Auto Lock Release" mode, not full auto.

Andre continues:
Tom Hardwick states it rightly in another forum: "Setting Auto Shutter to "off" simply means that the shutter speed won't be varied in the auto mode. Auto shutter "on" means the camera can use any
shutter speed it likes; it can be any value,... " I agree, in "Auto Lock" mode.

Just to refresh our memory, I refer to Mark's original post:
"Now that I am more confident with the camera I have been concentrating on improving my use of the manual exposure controls. With that in mind I was wondering if turning off auto shutter in the menu is a good idea. I gather that the shutter is then locked at 1/50 although the PD150 manual makes no reference to this. I thought that by turning the shutter off it would be one less thing I would have to worry about when going to manual exposure during the heat of a wedding shoot."

"turning off auto shutter in the menu" will have no effect on the manual controls, as he is asking. "I gather that the shutter is then locked at 1/50" Absolutely not. If you are shooting in what we call "manual position," you must see the item in the finder/lcd to be certain it is locked, which is what I said in my original post, although I misused the word "hold" for "manual position." I also said "locked" when I should have said "Hold." Damn Sony.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defense rests.
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Old February 14th, 2003, 03:16 PM   #18
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<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : Hmmm.

When my PD150 is in full manual mode, nothing I can do to the camera changes the shutter speed except pressing the shutter speed button and then operating the thumbwheel.

Wayne
If you don't see the shutter speed indicated Mike, it is not locked. The speed will change, but you will not see a read out indicating this. Try this. In "manual" set the iris and lock it, but do not set the shutter speed; you should not see it indicated. Now roll tape, and pan to a very bright light source and record a bit more. Then playback the footage with the "data code" on so you can see the settings. You should see the shutter move from the original shot, and increase in speed as it gets to the bright light. Even if you have "Auto Shutter" turned off in the menus.

If I place the camera in hold, the translucent bar 'under' the camera speed readout goes away but the shutter speed stays on screen. It is indeed locked. Nothing I can do will change that value.

Wayne
Yes. The shutter speed is indicated, therefore it is "locked." But if you did not see it, it would act just like the above example.

This new camera works just like my old camera did in this respect.

Am I missing something about setup that would cause this not to work as I described? -->>>

All is well, Mike.
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Old February 15th, 2003, 04:40 AM   #19
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Wayne plse try the following: put the slider in manual (center position), set the auto shttr "on" in the menu, point to a not too bright scene and verify the shutter setting it takes by pushing "shttr" and push the wheel (will be 1/60). Push the shttr button again (so that nothing remains prompted) and point to a bright scene. Ignore the ND prompt and veryfy again by pushing the shttr button and the wheel and you will see the shutter speed has gone up (up to 1/215 in my test). Then change the setting in the menu to auto shttr "off". Repeat exactly the above sequence and verify finally the shutter speed. Iwill be kept on 1/60 (1/50 in my test) while nothing is on the screen. What this all means:
Putting the cam in MANUAL (shift the slider to autolock release – center position) without further settings defined (nothing prompted), the cam will still block the shutter speed when it is set so in the menu (auto shttr off). Again: without any prompt and the slider in manual mode, the shutter can be locked in the menu by setting “autoshttr off”. Thus you don’t need the shutter speed visible in order to lock it, neither in auto, nor in manual mode. When you see it in manual mode, it is of course locked to the set value all the time. So the statement “if you don’t see the shutter speed indicated in the display, it is not locked” is wrong in auto mode, and in manual mode as well.
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Old February 15th, 2003, 12:41 PM   #20
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I believe we have reached an impasse, Andre.
With the Auto Shutter set Off. Slider switch in center (manual) position, iris set to 4.8, shutter set to 60 as verified by display. Now, I pan to a bright light, and the image is overexposed. I press the shutter speed button, and the 60 disappears from the display, and the image becomes more properly exposed. Now, I press the shutter speed button again, and "2000" now appears in the display. The shutter went into auto mode and adjusted the shutter speed to 1/2000, which is now locked as it appears in the display. I pan back to the scene, and the 2000 is still displayed. I press the button again, the 2000 disappears, and I press the shutter speed button yet again, and it now displays, 60, the normal default in NTSC world.

All of which confirms my earlier test, which allows me to say with great certainty, "If you do not see the function (iris, gain, shutter speed) indicated in the viewfinder, it is in automatic mode."

I quote from page 42 of the English manual for the PD 150: "The functions (iris, gain and shutter speed) that are not adjusted manually will be automatically adjusted according to shooting conditions." (See Auto Shutter)

Perhaps the VX2K works differently. I guess we will need some others to duplicate our experiment and see what their results indicate.

I guess the jury is still out.

Bulletin: I am adding to this post after finding a VX2K manual. I refer to instructions on page 45 of the English manual, which describes how to adjust the shutter speed in manual operation. Nothing contrary to what we have described, however this is the instruction for returning to automatic shutter operation as it appears in the manual:

To return to automatic shutter speed mode
Set the AUTO LOCK selector to AUTO LOCK or press SHUTTER SPEED. The shutter
speed indicator disappears from the LCD or viewfinder screen. (pg 45)

No mention is made of "unless you have selected Off in the Auto Shutter menu."
I believe this supports my contention and runs directly contrary to what Andre has advised. I believe that our major disagreement is, I contend the AUTO SHUTTER control in the menus only functions when the camera is in AUTO LOCK mode. OTOH, Andre contends that by selecting OFF in this menu item, this will effectively lock the shutter speed in the manual mode, even when the item does not appear in the viewfinder/lcd.

What do our readers think? Hello? Hello?
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Old February 15th, 2003, 02:07 PM   #21
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You wrote: "With the Auto Shutter set Off. Slider switch in center (manual) position, iris set to 4.8, shutter set to 60 as verified by display"...I don't have to read any further Wayne , because you don't create the situation I was describing...I wrote: "slider in mid position(manual) and nothing more...no further selections or screen prompts. NOT iris set (prompted) at whatever, NOT shutter set to 1/60...Just the slider to MANUAL. So the cam is then in manual mode OK? Then it reacts exactly like I described which means that the shutter can be locked or unlocked in manual mode (slider in mid position)without any prompt.
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Old February 15th, 2003, 02:14 PM   #22
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I'm finding all this rather bewildering! All along I've had a hard time understanding the shutter speed function on my VX-2000. I was going to stay out of it, but couldn't stand it any longer so I tried some of the things being discussed. On the VX2K:

Repeating Wayne's expeiment, I set auto shutter off in the menu. Slider switch is in middle, maual position. I press the exposure button next to the LCD screen and use the wheel to set the iris at f4.8. All that shows in the viewfinder thus far is "F4.8 0dB", no shutter speed is indicated. I press the shutter speed button on the back of the camera. Nothing happens. Press the thumb wheel. Nothing. I cannot set the shutter speed at all! Seems like this is different from the PD-150, no?

Next, I press the exposure button again. Nothing is displayed in the finder but the scene brightens indicating the camera is using auto iris to adjust exposure. Now I press the shutter speed button. 60 appears highlighted in the finder. Now I press the exposure button again. The 60 is unhighlit (is that a word?) and OPEN 3dB is displayed. I manually dial it back down to F4.8 0dB. The 60 still remains in the finder. Now I pan outside the window to the bright snow and zebra fills the screen. But F4.8 0dB 60 remains in the finder.

Finally, I press the shutter speed button again. Nothing happens. But when I press the exposure button and auto-iris kicks in then the 60 becomes highlit again, as though I had pressed the shutter speed button. I set the shutter speed to 1000, then press exposure, putting the camera back into manual iris mode. Now it continues to hold and display 1000 even as I pan through light and dark areas. I can manually set the iris as desired.

So on the VX-2000 it appears you cannot set the shutter speed unless you're in auto-iris mode. In other words, you can't adjust shutter speed manually "on the fly". To do so you must first allow the camera to set the iris wherever it wants, set your shutter speed, then readjust the iris. FWIW, I tried setting autoshutter ON in the menu and it had no effect on any of the above tests.

Your mileage may vary. Do any other VX-2000 owners get different results?
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Old February 15th, 2003, 04:27 PM   #23
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I am going to pass on this as you Andre has worn me down, and just go on my poor, uninformed way with this final note: If you place the slider in the middle position, but there is no indication of any of the three functions in the finder/lcd, then you are in effect in full auto mode.

Again, I quote from page 42 of the English manual for the PD 150: "The functions (iris, gain and shutter speed) that are not adjusted manually will be automatically adjusted according to shooting conditions." And the only way you can manually adjust these functions is by having them visible in the viewfinder. Ergo, if it isn't in the viewfinder/lcd, it is in auto.

Boyd, I am at a loss for your experiment, and maybe the VX2K is different from the PD150. Right now my brain is fried with all this and I give up. But I have in no way changed my opinion. I hope others will chime in.
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Old February 16th, 2003, 11:30 AM   #24
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My understanding is that the slider in mid position stands for "manual mode". Could well be that the cam behaves as in auto mode when nothing is prompted, but mid position of the slider is still "manual" selection.
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Old February 16th, 2003, 12:58 PM   #25
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I think your differences are that when the slider is put in the middle (manual) everything is still auto until you press iris or shutter or whatever to set (lock) that particular function. The camera will adjust the iris first to compensate then the shutter if needed. Locking the iris will then allow the camera to go ahead and adjust the shutter speed to compensate light changes (aperture priority). Lock the shutter and leave iris untouched and you have shutter priority. So it seems you are both right to a degree.
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Old February 16th, 2003, 01:39 PM   #26
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Absolutely correct Andrew. The basic issue was whether or not the shutter could be locked (through a setting in the menul) without the shutter speed is being prompted in the viewfinder. The answer is "yes" in the slider up (auto) and in the slider mid position as well. The later being associated with "manual" but in fact reacts as auto if nothing is set any further. This counterdicts
Wayne's assertion that there is nothing locked as long as it isn't prompted.
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Old February 16th, 2003, 04:29 PM   #27
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<<<-- Originally posted by Andre De Clercq : Absolutely correct Andrew. The basic issue was whether or not the shutter could be locked (through a setting in the menul) without the shutter speed is being prompted in the viewfinder. The answer is "yes" in the slider up (auto) and in the slider mid position as well. The later being associated with "manual" but in fact reacts as auto if nothing is set any further. This counterdicts
Wayne's assertion that there is nothing locked as long as it isn't prompted. -->>>

Where is your proof of this Andre? I just did another test as follows:
Auto Shutter control to "Off"
Slider to manual/center postion (Auto Lock release)
None of the functions (iris, gain, shutter speed) visible in display.
Roll tape, pan from room scene to bright light for a few seconds. Stop tape.
Playback tape with "data code" information visible, which indicates "Manual" "f/2" "ATW" "0db" and "60" for shutter speed at beginning of scene. As the camera pans to the light, two settings ramp up, with the iris changing to f/11, and then the shutter speed ramps up to "180." Conclusion: the shutter speed is not locked, despite the "Auto Shutter" being "Off."

As I indicated, it is possible that the VX2K behaves differently than my PD150, although I don't think so. This is why I hope some other VX2K owners will try these experiments and report back. Until I hear a contradictory reports from others, I will continue to say, "If you don't see the function (iris, gain, shutter speed) in the viewfinder/lcd, it isn't locked."

Andre seems to pass right over my quote from page 42 of the English manual for the PD 150: "The functions (iris, gain and shutter speed) that are not adjusted manually will be automatically adjusted according to shooting conditions."
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Old February 17th, 2003, 03:35 AM   #28
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Wayne, I just repeated (once again!) the mid position (manual) test you describe. With auto shttr off I started with f4/ 50 went up (ignoring the nd2 prompt) and the data code went to f11/ 50 with visible resolution reduction). In auto shttr on, same conditions the shutter went uo to 1/215 (f11) in the datacode. I hope indeed that other (VX and PD owners) repeat the test...Otherwise, I remain confused about :"I will continue to say, "If you don't see the function (iris, gain, shutter speed) in the viewfinder/lcd, it isn't locked."" I tought we already agreed in the autolock mode (slider up) that the shttr lock works without any prompt...If yes, you should correct your statement. W.r.t my "pass over" (page 42) This doesn't contradict anything because auto shttr is being adjusted manually in the menu (just like many other man adjustements which can be set in the menu).
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Old February 17th, 2003, 01:19 PM   #29
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<<<-- Originally posted by Andre De Clercq : Wayne, I just repeated (once again!) the mid position (manual) test you describe. With auto shttr off I started with f4/ 50 went up (ignoring the nd2 prompt) and the data code went to f11/ 50 with visible resolution reduction).>>>

Just out of curiosity, it reads as though you were able to see f/4 and 50 when you started. You must not see them in the finder to be in auto in the slider center position. Yes?


<<<In auto shttr on, same conditions the shutter went uo to 1/215 (f11) in the datacode. I hope indeed that other (VX and PD owners) repeat the test...Otherwise, I remain confused about :"I will continue to say, "If you don't see the function (iris, gain, shutter speed) in the viewfinder/lcd, it isn't locked."" I tought we already agreed in the autolock mode (slider up) that the shttr lock works without any prompt...If yes, you should correct your statement.>>>

Somewhere in my many posts I mentioned that the "Auto Shutter-Off" works only when the camera is in "Auto Lock" (top slider postition) and not in Manual (center position). That is the whole point to this discussion. But I will ammend my instructions to: When using the camera in the "Manual" (or center slider) mode, if you don't see a function (iris, gain, shutter speed) indicated in the vewfinder/lcd, then that function is in Auto mode.

<<<< W.r.t my "pass over" (page 42) This doesn't contradict anything because auto shttr is being adjusted manually in the menu (just like many other man adjustements which can be set in the menu). -->>>

There are no exceptions to the note in the manual. At that point in the manual menu choices have not even been discussed. But since the manual does contain certain errors in semantics, I don't use it as the final word. But I do think it confirms my tests.

We need others to try the tests and see what results they come up with. Unfortunately, at this point I think we are the only two individuals with any interst in this topic. And who can blame them?
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Old February 17th, 2003, 03:58 PM   #30
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Maybe one day, when people experience strobing or severe resolution reduction by diffraction in high ambient light situations, they will become interested...
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