The New F

[Dennis Hingsberg]

There appear to be more signs that it is indeed a new camera by Sony but the new speculation is that perhaps it is a FULL FRAME video camera and has nothing to do with F3 or 4k at all!

Now to me this makes sense.

[Mark Kenfield]

Whereabouts are those 'signs' Dennis? That's a very intriguing idea.

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

...why would you buy the F3 replacement? It would have to be something special to make the F3 replacement a better buy than a 4k raw capable FS700.

Hopefully good ergonomics! A compact, balanced, shoulder mounted camera with the F3's specs and 50Mbps XDCAM HD would get me on the waiting list.

Add to that a version with the chip from the FS700 and 4K external recording and Sony could introduce two very popular models with very little R&D cost.

No doubt it will actually turn out to be some ergo-brick-disaster with no consideration of operating or monitoring.

[Glen Vandermolen]

Put your deposit down now. They do say it's a new camcorder:

The New F Camcorder by Sony to be announced on 30th October 2012 - PRE-ORDER DEPOSIT

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

Put your deposit down now. They do say it's a new camcorder:

The New F Camcorder by Sony to be announced on 30th October 2012 - PRE-ORDER DEPOSIT

From that link:

It is anticipated that TheNewF could be an updated successor to the PMW-F3 super 35mm camcorder sporting improved 'broadcast friendly' 50Mb/s recording quality and a whole range of other improvements...

We're not allowed to disclose exact specifications at the moment, all we can say for sure is that "TheNewF is probably the most exciting product that we can't tell you about"

[Mark Kenfield]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

So if they do bring out an F3 with the FS700 chip (which has 11 MP to help with steady shot etc) and then bring out the recorder for 4K raw for the FS700, why would you buy the F3 replacement? It would have to be something special to make the F3 replacement a better buy than a 4k raw capable FS700.

Alister, couldn't help but notice your tweet that you've put down a pre-order for one. Obviously you can't tell us about the camera itself, but can you share with us whether your pre-order is to replace your F3s, to compliment them, or to offer something very different to what they do?

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Originally Posted by Mark Kenfield

Whereabouts are those 'signs' Dennis? That's a very intriguing idea.

@CVPgroup: @sammorganmoore We think it's likely to be priced in F3 territory not FS100/700... It could be for you if RED Scarlet is an option though...

[Richard Crook]

What we know:
1) Sony is not above placing existing advanced sensors in cheaper bodies. (F3 sensor in FS100)
2) 4k is a very real competitive market right now.
3) The F3 is due for a replacement according to the historic release dates.
4) the F3 is at its limit for any profound firmware updates.
5) there is a huge gap in the Sony 4k offerings between the fs700 and the F65, and the price point is near F3 territory.
6) They have entertained suggestions on F3 improvements, which include (and seem to be the most popular requests) 50mbps internal codec, RAW output, faster framerates, ergonomics, build quality.

My prediction based on above:
They will be announcing a camera near the F3 original price point with the F65 sensor, i bet it will be called the F4k, compressed codec at 50mbps 1080p to internal cards, more or less the same s-log and 1.5g and 3G dual link outputs, ability to send out 4k RAW to their simoultaneously announced 4k raw recorder (that can be used on the F4k and the fs700). The 1080p shooting would have more advanced fs700 framerates without buffer restrictions, but the 4k option framerates will fall short at no more than 60i. The camera will be ergonomical, better mounting options, and look more like a modular "cinema camera."

Of course I could be completely wrong, but that's my prediction. Fun to speculate then realize I'm wrong when it comes out...lol.

[Alister Chapman]

Originally Posted by Mark Kenfield

Alister, couldn't help but notice your tweet that you've put down a pre-order for one. Obviously you can't tell us about the camera itself, but can you share with us whether your pre-order is to replace your F3s, to compliment them, or to offer something very different to what they do?

Can't answer that without breaking the NDA. I don't have all the details on this thing (camera, recorder whatever), don't forget FS700 recorder AND firmware update is still to be announced. This is still incredibly secret even within Sony, I'm not really supposed to know a lot of what I do. But the bits that I do know are extremely exciting, enough to make me place an order to get to the top of what I think will be a very, very long queue (consider that because of all the training that I do around the world it is important to me to have the latests Sony toys asap). I think many will be pleasantly surprised by what Sony have in the pipelines.

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Originally Posted by Richard Crook

What we know:
1) Sony is not above placing existing advanced sensors in cheaper bodies. (F3 sensor in FS100)
2) 4k is a very real competitive market right now.
3) The F3 is due for a replacement according to the historic release dates.
4) the F3 is at its limit for any profound firmware updates.
5) there is a huge gap in the Sony 4k offerings between the fs700 and the F65, and the price point is near F3 territory.

My prediction based on above:
They will be announcing a camera near the F3 original price point with the F65 sensor, i bet it will be called the F4k, compressed codec at 50mbps 1080p to internal cards, more or less the same s-log and 1.5g and 3G dual link outputs, ability to record 4k to their simoultaneously announced 4k raw recorder (that can be used on the F4k and the fs700). The 1080p shooting would have more advanced fs700 framerates without buffer restrictions, but the 4k option framerates will fall short at no more than 60i.

Of course I could be completely wrong, but that's my prediction. Fun to speculate then realize I'm wrong when it comes out...lol.

And what would you propose be a price for something like that?

I say at least $25k to compete with the C500. (plus of course ext. recorder and any paid options....)

[Richard Crook]

I think you're right. Msrp for around 25k.

[Dennis Hingsberg]

It will be great with revamped higher bitrate 50mbps codec, and option to record 4k externally but at that price as the Dragon's Den would say here in Canada, "I'm out".

[Chris Medico]

I'll toss out my guess..

My guess is it will be a camera between the F3 and the F35 in price. I don't suspect it will be a direct replacement for the F3 but a step up in ability. Most likely 4k capable with an external recorder (not 4k internal). I could see 50mb 4:2:2 internal. My thought there is why design a 4k recorder with just one camera in mind (FS700)?

I would expect if they were designing a camera needing external 4k recording that the new recorder would work with both and would couple closely into the new cameras' body. Like the SR-R4 recorder nestles up against the back of the F65.

It makes sense to have 4k at multiple price points across the line. 4k isn't ready for home consumption but has its place in productions headed for the big screen. Sharing some hardware (such as the recorder) saves some development capital and time.

With the final days of shooting on film really coming I think Sony wants to position itself as the standard in the industry for image acquisition on large screen productions.

This is strictly speculation on my part.

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

I'll toss out my guess..

My guess is it will be a camera between the F3 and the F35 in price. I don't suspect it will be a direct replacement for the F3 but a step up in ability. Most likely 4k capable with an external recorder (not 4k internal). I could see 50mb 4:2:2 internal. My thought there is why design a 4k recorder with just one camera in mind (FS700)?

I would expect if they were designing a camera needing external 4k recording that the new recorder would work with both and would couple closely into the new cameras' body. Like the SR-R4 recorder nestles up against the back of the F65.

It makes sense to have 4k at multiple price points across the line. 4k isn't ready for home consumption but has its place in productions headed for the big screen. Sharing some hardware (such as the recorder) saves some development capital and time.

With the final days of shooting on film really coming I think Sony wants to position itself as the standard in the industry for image acquisition on large screen productions.

This is strictly speculation on my part.

Yep. Couldn't agree more with this conclusion. It's already been proven by that when you offer an upgrade path everyone's fancy is tickled to death, and in turn you will draw a much larger crowd.

The New F will be PERFECT for those needing a higher bitrate codec in order to meet certain broadcast minimum requirements, and those who want to future proof their investment and have the option of 4k once its available.

It is a genious approach by Sony and honestly kudos to them for making available such a flexible product!

I just think for anyone who only wants 4k - this will not be the solution for them, as it will be cost prohibitive but honestly I hope I am wrong. I am Sony's biggest fan!

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Dennis Hingsberg

There appear to be more signs that it is indeed a new camera by Sony but the new speculation is that perhaps it is a FULL FRAME video camera and .............

Hmmm, well I'm not under NDA and neither do I know anything that's not been posted publicly - so I remain free to speculate!

Can I ask where you've read this speculation, Dennis, and exactly what is being said?

It's made me think of something, a query Alister raised some months ago, and a very good query too! Basically, the FS700 uses 3840x2160 active pixels - or 8.3 megapixels. Yet Sony quote the chip as having 11.6 megapixels total, so what's the point of the extra 3.3 megapixels? It's way, way more than normally used for bordering of the active area.

At the time I suggested:

But what if the total area of the chip had a 2.35:1 aspect area? (The FS700 just cropping the central 16:9.) If we assume 2160 vertically, that would make 5076 horizontally, and a total of 10,964,160 photosites altogether for active area? Add on the extra for black level and noise sampling, and that matches 11.6M pretty closely.

So what if the announcement is this hypothetical true widescreen camera? Not simply cropped 4k, but retaining the full vertical resolution of 4k?

Complete speculation, yes, but does anybody have any other explanation for why the FS700 chip has so many photosites? Or why the mathematics should fit the 2.35:1 explanation so well?