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Old December 28th, 2013, 11:37 AM   #1
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Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

The latest firmware update allows a Super 16 mode on the F5/F55 cameras, which allows the use of Super 16 glass.

Sony Firmware 3.0 Update | Film and Digital Times
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Old December 28th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #2
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Fortunately, the center crop mode is useful for a lot more than just 16mm lenses. I don't even know anyone who owns a 16mm lens. :-)

The center crop can also be used as a 2x digital extender with any 35mm lens without any loss of light or resolution. For example my Zeiss 15.5-45mm T2.8 lens suddenly becomes the equivalent of a 31-90mm T2.8 lens with the flick of a switch. It won't have the same shallow depth-of-field and exact same perspective as an actual lens with a longer focal length, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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Old December 28th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #3
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

You can also use B4 ENG lenses via the MTF B4 adapter without using the lenses 2x extender. This gives the same zoom range as on a 2/3" camera and with only a half stop light loss.

Do remember though that as the sensor is only 2k bayer in crop mode that the final resolution is less than full HD, approx 1.7k. But I doubt most people will notice the slightly lower resolution.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 09:00 PM   #4
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

If you are going to be using the same pl lens with either shot, is it better to use super 16 than to crop HD from a full frame 4k?
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Old December 29th, 2013, 07:43 AM   #5
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

When you say "super 16" I assume you mean the function called Center Scan mode?

I have not done any testing to compare a rescaled 4K image in post to an HD image that was shot with Center Scan. However, I have no doubts, based on the other tests I have already done, that the results would look virtually identical.

But the advantage of the Center Scan mode is that you don't have to record a 4K image to get it. Compared to HD, the 4K image files are huge.
And the F5 can't do any internal 4K at all, only the F55 can do that. But both cameras can do Center Scan.
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Old December 29th, 2013, 09:40 AM   #6
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Here are several test clips I shot in both Center Scan mode and Full Scan mode using the same framing to see if there were any differences in quality between images.

Take a look: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-pmw...e-framing.html
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Old December 29th, 2013, 10:23 AM   #7
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Sorry about that Doug, yes I meant center scan. The original poster called it super16 in the title. Thanks Dennis, I am following your other threads but have not registered to post in the SCF. I will check out your findings.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 08:29 PM   #8
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
You can also use B4 ENG lenses via the MTF B4 adapter without using the lenses 2x extender. This gives the same zoom range as on a 2/3" camera and with only a half stop light loss.

Do remember though that as the sensor is only 2k bayer in crop mode that the final resolution is less than full HD, approx 1.7k. But I doubt most people will notice the slightly lower resolution.
Alister...does the 2/3 lens still need the internal magnification of the adapter to cover the F5's 2K center scan area? What would happen with just a straight B4 to FZ adapter with no glass in it?
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:30 AM   #9
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Jon, I have been thinking the same thing and will do official testing soon.

I think I had it worked out that with a physical lens mount adapter without built-in optics, but with a 2x optical doubler built into the B4 lens, you would get something around 3000 x 1600 from using the full 4k sensor preserving the full FOV of the B4 2/3" lens.

Now that the Sony's offer center scan instead of shooting a full 4k and cropping in post you could shoot 2k center scan and it would be cropped for you in-camera, but you can see how much of the full iamge would be chopped off as well as some of the FOV from the B4 lens. My thought was to shoot in 4k mode then in post on a 2k timeline reduce the 3000 x 1600 image size by about 30-33% so there is no change in B4 lens FOV and less loss in sharpness which seems to happen when using the center scan mode.

Your question however was what would happen if there were no internal optics in the adapter, and no 2x doubler in the B4 2/3" lens:

The F5/F55 sensor size is 22.6 x 12.7mm and a B4 lens with 2x doubler built in will easily cover the micro 4/3rd format which is 17.3 x 13mm. A B4 lens without any doubler built in is around 8.8 x 6.6 mm so if you were to shoot this on a 4k sensor you would still end up with around 1600 x 1120 which is slightly short vertically of 1920 pixels. You could blow up the image 20% or shrink it down to 720p (1280x720).

Last edited by Dennis Hingsberg; January 16th, 2014 at 05:02 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old January 16th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #10
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Dennis,

Okay so it looks like the official dimension of Super-16 is 12.5 x 7.4mm, and I have found someone who calculated the F5 2k center scan at 12.3 x 7.5mm (don't know if that's correct). So if the unaltered B4 lens gives you only 8.8 x 6.6mm coverage, that means I would still need to crop and scale the image in 2K. Which means I still need the internal optics of the adapter to get full coverage. Which still means a $1700 adapter.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 02:00 PM   #11
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Here are the exact dimensions for Center Scan:

2K RAW: 12.09 x 6.38 13.67(D)
2K: 12.00 x 6.33 13.57(D)
HD: 11.25 x 6.33 12.91(D)
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Old January 16th, 2014, 02:10 PM   #12
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Jon, the $1700 MTF adapter still requires that your B4 2/3" lens has a built in 2x doubler and overall will incur 2.5 stops of light loss.

The options would be:

Option 1.) Shoot using a B4 2/3" with built-in 2x doubler and either:
- Use center scan to crop out 2k from 3000x1600 pixels. (1.5 crop factor from original B4 lens FOV, and I still think center-scan makes softer images in general.)
- Use full 4k sensor to capture 3000x1600 pixels and [b[crop[/b] in post to HD/2k frame. Also approx 1.5 crop factor.
- Use full 4k sensor to capture 3000x1600 pixles and scale in post to HD or 2k frame. No crop factor, slightly improved sharpness.

Using a lens with a 2x doubler means you can use a pure physical adapter without optics and so less light loss and potentially less abberations. Note the MTF adapter does require 2x extender on your B4 lens so with it you would be going through two sets of optics.


Option 2.) Use a B4 2/3" lens without 2x doubler and set the camera to 2k center-scan mode, 2k full scan mode, or 4k full scan mode and then in post either:

- Shrink the 1600x1200 image down to 720p (1280 x 720). No crop factor. Slightly improved image sharpness.
- Crop the 1600x1200 image to 720p (1280 x 720). (1.25 crop factor from original B4 lens FOV)
- Scale up 1600x1200 to 1920x1080. No lens crop factor. But 20% blow up so slight loss in sharpness.

Note that 4k full and 2k full modes will produce slightly sharper images than the 2k center-scan mode. For option 2 the only advantage of 2k center-scan is that the file sizes will be smaller by approximately 4 times.


Option 3.) Use optical adapter like MTF, or Sony's new B4 convertors. More optics = more light loss and abberations. Also as indicated the MTF adapter only works with 2x doubler built into the lens.

Hope this is somewhat clear. Tricky to explain.

Last edited by Dennis Hingsberg; January 16th, 2014 at 05:13 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old January 16th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #13
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Just to clarify: are you saying that "Option 2" would work with a non-optical adapter such as the Fotodiox B4 to FZ?
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Old January 16th, 2014, 05:14 PM   #14
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Yes exactly, or you can use the combination of a B4 2/3" to Canon physical mount with Canon to Sony FZ mount.

Approximately 1600 x 1120 does give you some options to work with but what I want to know and test is if that 20% blow up to HD 1920 x 1080 would introduce about the same softness as using a B4 2/3" lens with 2x doubler then scaled down to HD.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 05:18 PM   #15
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Re: Super 16 mode on F5 & F55

Nice...the Fotodiox is only $250. Am I also correct to assume the flange distance doesn't matter since these broadcast lenses can adjust back focus?
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