How to Convert EX-1 to SD for DVD ?????

I have been using many DV camcorders with various software and computers (both PC and Apple) since 1990, with great results. Likewise, I have been producing both Blu-Ray and Standard Definition disks from the Sony FX-1 - and I and my customers like the results very much.

But the DVD results from the EX-1 have been an Absolute Abomination, and totally unacceptable to me and any of my customers. Blu Ray Discs produced from the EX-1 are superb. But anything, any way regarding DVDs are terrible. I am shooting NTSC 1920 x 1080 p or i.

Last summer I posted a query about this issue on the Cimeform forum (on which I have also posted this query, now), and I received many helpful responses, noe of which worked for me. Since then, I have spent 542 hours (according to my time reports) attempting to produce ANY acceptable DVDs from the EX-1 with no success. The best I can do is to shoot progressive, introduce very significant Gaussian Blur, convert to 720 x 480 progressive using Cineform Prospect 4K, and then produce progressive DVDs, to be played, of course, on progressive output DVD players - but the result is lousy - not anything as good as DVDs produced from the Sony FX-1 HDV! If I shoot interlaced and produce interlaced DVDs, the results are really totally unacceptably soft. If I shoot interlaced and then use an anti-flicker filter, the horizontal (but not the vertical "twitter" or "flicker") is pretty much removed. If I do not go through any of these insane dances, the horizontal AND vertical twitter on the DVD is unwatchable. In the 18 years I have been in the field, I have never seen such garbage. The new $200 "HD" mini camcorders produce far superior results to this. So, in the meantime, I have been using the FX-1 in my normal "day work".

Before I go into any technical details, two points are definitely in order. First, when I produce a down rezzed progressive 720 x 480 AVI file (utilizing Cineform), the clarity and lack of artifacts are stunningly positive as viewed on 24 inch "hi-def" computer screens. It is only when the AVI file is converted to MPEG2 for the DVD that the result is horrible. Second, I realize that there are hundreds of producers out there who produce great DVDs from the EX-1 - I have seen many of them. But not me. And before I sell off this camera and all of the accessories (including $5,000 worth of cards), I am taking one last shot at hoping someone has a possible solution for me. My customers with Blu Ray players and full hi-def screens love what the EX-1 can shoot - unfortunately, most of my customers have only DVD players.

I am committed to PCs at the moment, so Apple as an alternative is out of the question. My main editing machine is a Boxx 8400, running two dual Xeons (3 GHz), 4 Gig Ram, 150 G 10k rpm program HD, and 800 G data HD, with all the usual bells and whistles, Windows XP, NVidia Quadro 1500, Adobe CS3 everything, updated, Cineform Prospect 4K. Two major Adobe programs used are Premiere and Encore.

In desperation, I purchased and installed the much vaunted and recommended Procoder 3 (it really messed up everything after I unsuccessfully tried it and un-installed it, and I had to do a complete re-install of everything to get the machine working again, and it appeared to have the same as Adobe's much maligned and dreaded Main Concept program!). Then I tried Vegas - the full version, with its DVD encoder, Nero 8, etc., etc. I tried ALL of the commercial top versions of many programs with which everyone was having success, but not me!

I also attempted to install and use some of the "free" programs that were supposed to be the creme de la creme, but I failed, somehow to get the hang of them (they may be perfect, I just couldn't figure out how to jump through all the hoops to make them work properly).

By the way, I've been assembling "home theaters" for 24 years, before there was any such thing out there, for my self and many others, and the terrible results I've been seeing on the big screen from the EX-1 produced DVDs are about the only terrible presentations I've seen (except for some very, very early commercial DVDs), as seen on some of my current up-rezzing facilities - 4 DVD players, 2 Sony Blu Ray Players, 2 Toshiba HD-DVD players (remember HD-DVD?), as displayed on a variety of units from a Samsung 42' flat panel LCD to a 109" Stewart Filmscreen Firehawk screen, projected by Panasonic's latest AE-3000U Projector - needless to say, all theater units incorporate the very latest downloads. The up-rezzing processors range from some marginal Faroujas to some great Faroujas and Silicone Optix Reon chips.

I'd post screen shots where possible, but its only when I play the resulting DVDs on the big screens that the problem can be seen - the 720 x 480 progressive resolution on a computer screen looks stunningly good, as do still grabs, but on LCDs and projected images, twitter twitter twitter with ANY DVDs, except, as mentioned, material softened to the point of impossibility.

My workflow is either from the BPAV files, either as immediately handled by Sony program into Adobe Premiere CS3., or brought into Premiere after conversion to 1920 x 1080 p or i by Cineform Prospect 4k (no matter which, the visual results in intermediate or final files appear the same), edit in Premiere, with color and other adjustments (with or without, the twitter problem is the same), conversion of the final, edited Premiere 1920 x 1080 p or i timeline to 720 x 480 p or i file (Cineform does a superior detailed, artifact free conversion, far better than ANY other technique I have used!), conversion of the resulting file to MPEG2 for DVD by the Main Concept program in Adobe Encore, and then after setting up menus in Encore, burning the DVD on a Sony burner in the 8400 Boxx.

Sooooooo, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. If anyone out there has ANY thoughts that might be helpful and work for me and get rid of the blasted twitter (vertical and horizontal), without softening the DVD picture to obliteration, you have my abundent gratitude!!!!!!!!

[Robert Bale]

Barry and Steve,

Thanks Guys, im onto it today and doing a few tests.

Rob.

[Jon Michael Ryan]

Greetings,

The read in this format has been informative. So informative that it's left me a little stunned; playback on SD DVD from my EX3 retains quality relatively well. None of my clients have made remark about the quality after export. Perhaps I need to watch my originals on my monitors and then go back to the TV for a review, but I haven't seen reason to be displeased yet; I work in the Apple ProRes intermediate (the native XDCAM import code), compress using Compressor into Mpeg-2 (I'll look up the settings when I'm home), and author the DVD using DVDSP4.

[Robert Bale]

Hi Barry,or any one that can help,

i have had a go at the setting in your pdf file, the only difference is the i am shooting 720p/50.

i have changed the relevant settings to suite my pal land settings.

the problem i can see watching the footage back (SD DVD made in DVDStudio Pro) on my 32" is (video content kids concert 15 children standing on stage) when i pan from left to right slowly the footage seem to be a bit jittery. It looks like when people film in 24p and pan quite fast you get the same jittery effect,
Note: when i had my JVC i shot the same format and never had this problem.

rob.

[Bill Parker]

I must be missing something. I've been using the EX1 for a while now and I export through Compressor & DVDSP to DVD and the image looks fine to me. It's a little soft - not as sharp as HD anyway, especially on the wider shots - but the close-ups look beautiful. Maybe I'm not fussy enough, but I used the same process to DVD with the JVC HD100 with satisfactory results - and the EX1 is even better. Are there other people out there who are happy with the results they're getting? If these methods can make my image look even better, then I'll go for it, but I haven't had a complaint from a client yet.

[Andy Wilkinson]

I'm editing EX3 clips in FCS2 (I do all my editing in XDCAM HD 1920x1080p 25 VBR), exporting to Compressor to make both the Std Def PAL MPEG-2 video file (m2v), with the best quality settings available on the standard list, and the AC3 audio file then going into DVDSP4 and making Std Def DVD's which look, even to my often critical eye, the best I've ever made! Yes, of course, a little softer for sure than the HD files but on both a 28 inch Panasonic flat screen (but CRT) TV and a 32 inch Samsung HDTV (LCD) as well as on various PC monitors from 17 to 24 inch the results are really superb. I've done very little "tweaking" of settings other than customise everything in DVDSP4 for 16x9 of course and set encoding to 'Best' in Compressor. Not sure this helps.....and I'm not expert enough in FCS2 (yet!) to be able to actively problem solve this one... but just to say it all seems to work well for me. Before I got my EX3 and moved over to Macs I used to get pretty good results with Vegas 7 and DVDA too with previous HD cams.

I'm interested in Steve's workflow (page 1 of this thread) and will try that as a direct comparison... when I get time.

[Barry J. Anwender]

Originally Posted by Robert Bale

the problem i can see watching the footage back (SD DVD made in DVDStudio Pro) on my 32" is (video content kids concert 15 children standing on stage) when i pan from left to right slowly the footage seem to be a bit jittery. It looks like when people film in 24p and pan quite fast you get the same jittery effect,
Note: when i had my JVC i shot the same format and never had this problem.

rob.

Rob, if you are indeed panning slowly, then what you are seeing should not be from the camera CMOS rolling effect. I expect that the problem is more likely to do with going from 50p progressive to 50i interlaces for you SD DVD. In FCP you might try to set the SD Sequence settings, ProRes codec (Advanced) to none (i.e uncheck interlaced) Then make sure your compressor (Resizing Control) Fields are set to "Bottom first". In other words, let Compressor do all of the work of conversion from p to i.

You are ahead of me in this so I have not yet tested working with progressive HD conversion to SD interlaced. I have shoot 24p that only goes to Blu-ray and it is awesome. However, from the forum discussions it sounds like there are lot of folks shooting 1080 25/30p and using a similar workflow to mine and getting good results. Learn by innovating/doing :-) Cheers!

[Steve Shovlar]

To Bill.

What Barry just said.
Plus, when you setup your export out of FCP from the SD timeline after you have made your prores422 QT movie and dropped it on and rendered it, make sure in the advanced tab of the sequnce you have chosen 50 frames per second from the drop down movie, and not the default 25. By not doing that it would make the image more juddery instead of nice and smooth with pans ( and the reason I shoot in 720P50 and not 25). And make sure its set for progressive and 16:9.

Doing all that and you should have a nice smooth sd movie out of DVDSP. And not to forget in DVDSP set your fields to none.

[Sverker Hahn]

Originally Posted by Robert Bale

OK, I have the same problem, But using FCP, So can any FCP users shed some light.
I shoot in 720p/50 look fine on a hdtv QT FILE. But downconvert to a SD dvd and play it back on the same hdtv, look crap.
(to me it looks like a bad conversion of interlaced to progressive 1080i to 720p)
i have tried bitevice,and compressor, no good either.

While I shoot in 1080p25, maybe you could try the workflow I use:
1 Edit clips in timeline with the clips settings, but you do not have to render.
2 Create a DV sequence with these settings:
- Frame size - choose "CCIR / DV PAL (5:4)" from the menu and you get 720x576.
- Pixel aspect ratio : choose "PAL - CCIR 601 (720x576) from the menu and check "Anamorphic 16:9".
- Field dominance "None"
- Editing timebase "25" (for you "50", I suppose)
- In QuickTime Video settings: click the button "Advanced" and choose "Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
3 Open this DV sequence and add you HD sequences to by dragging to the canvas. You will get the question if you want to change the DV sequence settings to those which you are adding: then click the "No"-button
4 Render
5 Export to a QuickTime reference file (some people suggest a self-contained, but I find reference files have the same quality and they are smaller and faster to export)
6 Open Compressor and use one of the DVD settings; however I find that adding a sharpening filter with the "5" setting is worth it.

[Barry J. Anwender]

Originally Posted by Sverker Hahn

While I shoot in 1080p25, maybe you could try the workflow I use:

6 Open Compressor and use one of the DVD settings; however I find that adding a sharpening filter with the "5" setting is worth it.

Sverker, perhaps it is an NTSC artifact, but I have also tried sharpening in DVDSP as you suggest. It cause the edges to "ring" that is to loose their clean definition. It may also have to do with the fact that I started out with 1080/60i while your source is progressive.

[Keith Malone]

hi William

What changes have you made to the standard Picture Profiles of the EX1 (if any)?
Particulary any changes to do with detail and crispness?

regards
Keith

[Sverker Hahn]

Originally Posted by Barry J. Anwender

Sverker, perhaps it is an NTSC artifact, but I have also tried sharpening in DVDSP as you suggest. It cause the edges to "ring" that is to loose their clean definition. It may also have to do with the fact that I started out with 1080/60i while your source is progressive.

Barry, I work in PAL only, so I don´t know about NTSC artifacts. It could be because of you working interlaced as you say. I find my SD clips almost like HD when on a HD-ready (1280x720) screen.

I tested the sharpen filter in Compressor, without and with the settings 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30. I find the difference between 0 and 5 small but noticable.

Maybe I should test sharpen filter settings 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 instead.

I have tested the demo of BitVice and compared with Compressor, but I found no difference.

[Paul Curtis]

William,

Perhaps a bit too late but can you post a small sample of what you're seeing?

I've just done a 45 minute project, all cineform prospect. Most of our viewing has been from a tivx digital media player on an HD plasma but i had to start encoding SD DVDs a few days ago. I just used adobe media convertor and output an mpeg 2 dvd stream for adobe encore from 1080p source and we found the results really very good, i have no issue with them at all and i can really get very picky...

Now either there's something technically amiss in your set up (but you've been through lots already) or there's something unusual about your source hence perhaps we can see a sample?

We shot a drama with an EX1, (no digital sharpening) and we still get comments about how nice it looks. The EX1 can produce fantasic images for a camera in its price range.


cheers
paul

[William Urschel]

From William ---- to those of you kind enough to provide direct suggestions, queries, etc., above, sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I just got back from an all day project, and will try to begin to respond to some of you in particular by late tomorrow.

Thanks again!

Bill Urschel

[Kevin Wayne Jones]

We use a pretty down and dirty method in creating SD DVDs of HD material. The results are quite nice.
Shoot XDCAM EX-1 1080i. Edit with Final Cut Studio 2.
Drop footage into a DV timeline.
Edit and render as usual.
Pipe the finished project out through firewire to our Sony RDR-GX7 desktop DVD recorder.
Record in HQ (60 minutes) or HSP (90 Minutes) modes for best quality.
No fancy menus, but looks great.
Better than I been able to do with Compresser and DVD Studio.

Kevin Jones

[Phil Hanna]

I found that once I get the program produced, I make a QT movie and load it into iDVD and let it make the conversion for me. The stuff looks great. You might give that a try.

Phil