How to Convert EX-1 to SD for DVD ?????

I have been using many DV camcorders with various software and computers (both PC and Apple) since 1990, with great results. Likewise, I have been producing both Blu-Ray and Standard Definition disks from the Sony FX-1 - and I and my customers like the results very much.

But the DVD results from the EX-1 have been an Absolute Abomination, and totally unacceptable to me and any of my customers. Blu Ray Discs produced from the EX-1 are superb. But anything, any way regarding DVDs are terrible. I am shooting NTSC 1920 x 1080 p or i.

Last summer I posted a query about this issue on the Cimeform forum (on which I have also posted this query, now), and I received many helpful responses, noe of which worked for me. Since then, I have spent 542 hours (according to my time reports) attempting to produce ANY acceptable DVDs from the EX-1 with no success. The best I can do is to shoot progressive, introduce very significant Gaussian Blur, convert to 720 x 480 progressive using Cineform Prospect 4K, and then produce progressive DVDs, to be played, of course, on progressive output DVD players - but the result is lousy - not anything as good as DVDs produced from the Sony FX-1 HDV! If I shoot interlaced and produce interlaced DVDs, the results are really totally unacceptably soft. If I shoot interlaced and then use an anti-flicker filter, the horizontal (but not the vertical "twitter" or "flicker") is pretty much removed. If I do not go through any of these insane dances, the horizontal AND vertical twitter on the DVD is unwatchable. In the 18 years I have been in the field, I have never seen such garbage. The new $200 "HD" mini camcorders produce far superior results to this. So, in the meantime, I have been using the FX-1 in my normal "day work".

Before I go into any technical details, two points are definitely in order. First, when I produce a down rezzed progressive 720 x 480 AVI file (utilizing Cineform), the clarity and lack of artifacts are stunningly positive as viewed on 24 inch "hi-def" computer screens. It is only when the AVI file is converted to MPEG2 for the DVD that the result is horrible. Second, I realize that there are hundreds of producers out there who produce great DVDs from the EX-1 - I have seen many of them. But not me. And before I sell off this camera and all of the accessories (including $5,000 worth of cards), I am taking one last shot at hoping someone has a possible solution for me. My customers with Blu Ray players and full hi-def screens love what the EX-1 can shoot - unfortunately, most of my customers have only DVD players.

I am committed to PCs at the moment, so Apple as an alternative is out of the question. My main editing machine is a Boxx 8400, running two dual Xeons (3 GHz), 4 Gig Ram, 150 G 10k rpm program HD, and 800 G data HD, with all the usual bells and whistles, Windows XP, NVidia Quadro 1500, Adobe CS3 everything, updated, Cineform Prospect 4K. Two major Adobe programs used are Premiere and Encore.

In desperation, I purchased and installed the much vaunted and recommended Procoder 3 (it really messed up everything after I unsuccessfully tried it and un-installed it, and I had to do a complete re-install of everything to get the machine working again, and it appeared to have the same as Adobe's much maligned and dreaded Main Concept program!). Then I tried Vegas - the full version, with its DVD encoder, Nero 8, etc., etc. I tried ALL of the commercial top versions of many programs with which everyone was having success, but not me!

I also attempted to install and use some of the "free" programs that were supposed to be the creme de la creme, but I failed, somehow to get the hang of them (they may be perfect, I just couldn't figure out how to jump through all the hoops to make them work properly).

By the way, I've been assembling "home theaters" for 24 years, before there was any such thing out there, for my self and many others, and the terrible results I've been seeing on the big screen from the EX-1 produced DVDs are about the only terrible presentations I've seen (except for some very, very early commercial DVDs), as seen on some of my current up-rezzing facilities - 4 DVD players, 2 Sony Blu Ray Players, 2 Toshiba HD-DVD players (remember HD-DVD?), as displayed on a variety of units from a Samsung 42' flat panel LCD to a 109" Stewart Filmscreen Firehawk screen, projected by Panasonic's latest AE-3000U Projector - needless to say, all theater units incorporate the very latest downloads. The up-rezzing processors range from some marginal Faroujas to some great Faroujas and Silicone Optix Reon chips.

I'd post screen shots where possible, but its only when I play the resulting DVDs on the big screens that the problem can be seen - the 720 x 480 progressive resolution on a computer screen looks stunningly good, as do still grabs, but on LCDs and projected images, twitter twitter twitter with ANY DVDs, except, as mentioned, material softened to the point of impossibility.

My workflow is either from the BPAV files, either as immediately handled by Sony program into Adobe Premiere CS3., or brought into Premiere after conversion to 1920 x 1080 p or i by Cineform Prospect 4k (no matter which, the visual results in intermediate or final files appear the same), edit in Premiere, with color and other adjustments (with or without, the twitter problem is the same), conversion of the final, edited Premiere 1920 x 1080 p or i timeline to 720 x 480 p or i file (Cineform does a superior detailed, artifact free conversion, far better than ANY other technique I have used!), conversion of the resulting file to MPEG2 for DVD by the Main Concept program in Adobe Encore, and then after setting up menus in Encore, burning the DVD on a Sony burner in the 8400 Boxx.

Sooooooo, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. If anyone out there has ANY thoughts that might be helpful and work for me and get rid of the blasted twitter (vertical and horizontal), without softening the DVD picture to obliteration, you have my abundent gratitude!!!!!!!!

[Jay Gladwell]

Originally Posted by Paul Kellett

I'm still finding this problem amazing.
I just render using sony vegas. Render to mpeg-2, burn with dvd architect.
I get stunning quality.
No faffing about going from this program to that program etc etc.

Paul.

Not having read the entire thread, I stopped at Paul's reply, to say I too use Vegas (Pro 8) and I can't imagine anything being any more simple. I'm not here to bang the drum for Vegas. Vegas will NOT work for everyone, just as the EX cameras will not.

Import MFX files into Vegas, edit in HD with PMC audio, render using MainConcept MP2/DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen Video Stream (also available in PAL), and burn the DVD--No fuss, no muss. It's as easy and painless as it was working in DV!

And like Paul said, the image quality is stunning.

[William Urschel]

Oooooooooooooooppppppps! Sorry about that. I indicated above I'd be back shortly, but because of some very serious and potentially tragic personal circumstances, I will be considerably delayed in any substantive response to those of you so kind to respond. In any event, as time and attention away from the "normal" work day permits, I will probably try a series of tests both with and without Cineform Prospect 4k, and then with the el cheapo and then expensive test versions of Cinema Craft, and then try reloading Sony Vegas Pro 8 onto a far less powerful (I hope it has enough capacity, albeit probably incredibly slow) HP PC, and see what I see. I will also at some point attempt to respond specifically to comments made by each of you. So, until then..............

[Mark Krichever]

Originally Posted by Barry J. Anwender

It has taken some time because my goal is to deliver Blu-ray as well SD DVD with footage from my EX3. I just finished a 43 minute project that accomplishes this with very good SD results (sharp with clean edges) and amazing Blu-ray results. I used the attached workflow for EX3 1920x1080/60i (detail off), FCP 6.0.5 with an HD and SD timeline in the same project, then:

HD - Blu-ray via Encore CS4 4.01 (Export a FCP self-contained movie, set Encore project to 35Mb/s and PCM audio)
SD - DVD via Compressor 3.05 and DVDSP 4.2.1 (Export FCP reference with current settings, set DVDSP per)

Barry,
I use your recommended workflow procedure and results are good. Although I should say that there are some residual traces of aliasing but no interlacing problem in the picture.
I wonder how they achieve such a perfect quality of SD DVDs in commercially published movies.

Mark

[Mark Krichever]

Originally Posted by William Urschel

Oooooooooooooooppppppps! Sorry about that. I indicated above I'd be back shortly, but because of some very serious and potentially tragic personal circumstances, I will be considerably delayed in any substantive response to those of you so kind to respond. In any event, as time and attention away from the "normal" work day permits, I will probably try a series of tests both with and without Cineform Prospect 4k, and then with the el cheapo and then expensive test versions of Cinema Craft, and then try reloading Sony Vegas Pro 8 onto a far less powerful (I hope it has enough capacity, albeit probably incredibly slow) HP PC, and see what I see. I will also at some point attempt to respond specifically to comments made by each of you. So, until then..............

Wish you best...
Mark

[William Urschel]

To all of those who provided your expert experience, insights and advice, above, my many thanks again. But I am totally shut down at the moment, as I made the mistake of uninstalling CS3 and installing CS4, with the result that I now can transfer nothing from the timeline on Premiere, and Encore will not recognize ANY of my Blu-Ray burners. So after better than 12 years with Adobe, I am now going to attempt Sony's Vegas installation - if and when I EVER manage to get ANYTHING to work, I will be back. I wish you all a Happy New Year, and greater success than I am having at the moment!

[Mark Krichever]

Originally Posted by William Urschel

To all of those who provided your expert experience, insights and advice, above, my many thanks again. But I am totally shut down at the moment, as I made the mistake of uninstalling CS3 and installing CS4, with the result that I now can transfer nothing from the timeline on Premiere, and Encore will not recognize ANY of my Blu-Ray burners. So after better than 12 years with Adobe, I am now going to attempt Sony's Vegas installation - if and when I EVER manage to get ANYTHING to work, I will be back. I wish you all a Happy New Year, and greater success than I am having at the moment!

Happy New Year to everyone here.
William,
What Blue-Ray burner would you recommend?

[Barry J. Anwender]

Originally Posted by Mark Krichever

Happy New Year to everyone here.
William,
What Blue-Ray burner would you recommend?

If you intend on authoring with Encore CS3/4, then as can discover in the Adobe forums the choice is indeed limited. I can verify that the BWU-200S works reliably in my MacPro Early 2008 with both CS3 and CS4. I'd would expect the newest Sony BWU-300S to also work as advertised. Ensure the firmware on the BWU-200S is the latest!

Be cautioned that Encore's Blu-ray burn engine is NOT reliable and will fail on the smallest of errors in your menu's. However, have Encore build an .ISO disk image and then burn that with Toast 9.0.4(253), it works every time. Happy New Year & Cheers!

[Mark Krichever]

Originally Posted by Barry J. Anwender

If you intend on authoring with Encore CS3/4, then as can discover in the Adobe forums the choice is indeed limited. I can verify that the BWU-200S works reliably in my MacPro Early 2008 with both CS3 and CS4. I'd would expect the newest Sony BWU-300S to also work as advertised. Ensure the firmware on the BWU-200S is the latest!

Be cautioned that Encore's Blu-ray burn engine is NOT reliable and will fail on the smallest of errors in your menu's. However, have Encore build an .ISO disk image and then burn that with Toast 9.0.4(253), it works every time. Happy New Year & Cheers!

Thanks Barry. Sounds like another pain in the a-s operation. So for now I probably will not attempt to get into this part of technology. Especially if SD DVD is still accepted by customers.
Have a Happy one.

[Matthias von Mutius]

Hi I edit on the industries maybe best kept secret Avid-Pinnacle Liquid.
Using MXF Import is very quick, render in the background all FX as either uncompressed or any color of MP2 IFrame or IBP!
When all HD editing is done simply render out a PAL SD RGB uncompressed file, put that on a new SD Timeline or on a new track of the original sequence where you simply change the sequence to SD, disable-mute all HD Tracks, build your menu within Liquid and burn to DVD which looks perfekt.
Normally we play out to a DIGIBETA Player for Broadcast and the results are always pro.
There is a downloadable Trial version on the Pinnacle site, runs 30 days, does not mess up your system ! By the way Liquid shares code with SONY XPRI the highend SONY Editing system...
For any questions just ask
Matthias

[Mark Krichever]

Originally Posted by Matthias von Mutius

Hi I edit on the industries maybe best kept secret Avid-Pinnacle Liquid.
Using MXF Import is very quick, render in the background all FX as either uncompressed or any color of MP2 IFrame or IBP!
When all HD editing is done simply render out a PAL SD RGB uncompressed file, put that on a new SD Timeline or on a new track of the original sequence where you simply change the sequence to SD, disable-mute all HD Tracks, build your menu within Liquid and burn to DVD which looks perfekt.
Normally we play out to a DIGIBETA Player for Broadcast and the results are always pro.
There is a downloadable Trial version on the Pinnacle site, runs 30 days, does not mess up your system ! By the way Liquid shares code with SONY XPRI the highend SONY Editing system...
For any questions just ask
Matthias

I guess it is the matter of choice. My earlier experience with Pinnacle Liquid was very negative. In particular, their choice of stupid and unconventional interface made this software inconvenient for all my applications. Avid or FCP is much superior programs (per my personal experience). And running them on Mac pro together with Motion, AE and Color make them even more attractive. No Pinnacle here, man.
Do you work for Pinnacle or for its distributor?

[Matthias von Mutius]

Hi Mark, no I do not work for Pinnacle I am a freelance Broadcast allrounder from script to edit :-) and I love this Liquid software. It has it very own learning curve but is really powerfull... well still the industries best kept secret :-)
happy new one matthias

[Paul Joy]

Originally Posted by Steve Shovlar

Hi Robert, I think you are in PAL country in Aus aren't you? This is how I do it as a pom.

I shoot 720P50. Do all my editing in FCP. Then I export as a 720P quicktime movie using prores422 ( not HQ) as a self contained movie. the file size is LARGE. Once done, I do an easy setup, Pal DVD. Changethe settings of the sequence in advanced to 16:9 progessive and best. 50 frames per second.

Drop the newly made QT onto the timeline. It will ask if I want to chance to fit the settings of the file. Say no. the QT will then appear on the timeline and need rendering.

Render the file, then out to compressor as a PAL 16:9 SD in the highest quality you can get. Results have been superb and far higher than going from the timeline of the HD timeline to compressor and out.

As I've got a DVD project coming up in the next few days I've been doing some experiments and I have to say that I can't seem to replicate your findings Steve.

What advantages do you see by exporting a 720p/50 clip as Prores and then re-importing it into a DV-PAL timeline?

I'm not sure if I'm missing a step here but I'm also seeing no advantage in shooting 50p over 25p as the built in SD-DVD (PAL) settings in compressor convert the output to 25p anyway, none of my exported footage seems to be interlaced. I exported 25p and 50p clips using your suggested method and could not see any difference between them other than the 25p clip retained more quality.

I can't actually find any way of converting the 720p/50 EXCAM-EX clips to 50i when using the built in SD-DVD settings in compressor so I'm quite confused as to where the advantage lies in shooting 50 fps at all?

regards

Paul.

[Steve Shovlar]

Originally Posted by Paul Joy

As I've got a DVD project coming up in the next few days I've been doing some experiments and I have to say that I can't seem to replicate your findings Steve.

What advantages do you see by exporting a 720p/50 clip as Prores and then re-importing it into a DV-PAL timeline?

I'm not sure if I'm missing a step here but I'm also seeing no advantage in shooting 50p over 25p as the built in SD-DVD (PAL) settings in compressor convert the output to 25p anyway, none of my exported footage seems to be interlaced. I exported 25p and 50p clips using your suggested method and could not see any difference between them other than the 25p clip retained more quality.

I can't actually find any way of converting the 720p/50 EXCAM-EX clips to 50i when using the built in SD-DVD settings in compressor so I'm quite confused as to where the advantage lies in shooting 50 fps at all?

regards

Paul.

Paul, since I typed that I have changed my method.

First of all the reason I shoot 720p50 is for slo mo. I shoot a lot of weddings and 50 frames a second slowed to 50% gives me 25 frames a second and a much smoother slo mo of the love scenes/musical montage. No other reason. Slowing 720p25 by 50% gives a horrible jerky mess which is unusable.

OK now this is what I do. Shoot and edit in 720P. ( makes no difference in output if it is 50p or 25p.)

Once edited, go easy setup, make a new PAL SD timeline, and drop your hd sequence onto the SD timeline, click no when it asks if you want to change it to the format you are dropping on the timeline. Render timeline.

Export to Compressor. Here I use Cinema Craft Encoder MP, which I think gives slightly better results than Compressor. But in Comprssor make sure frames are set to Best and output as a 2 pass VBR with 6000 average, 2000 minum and 9000 max if the dvd is long.

CBR of 8000 if a short.

[Marc Myers]

I'm a satisfied Liquid user as well (and I also don't work for the company, jeeez...). The workflow is as described above. The original company that developed the software, Fast, had one of the first MPEG2 editing solutions and they carried that knowledge forward through their whole product line. I also use Liquid in conjunction with an Aja board, capturing video as HD-SDI and thus escaping the codec issues. If the project's to end up as DVD, my XDCAM deck, the PDW-F75 downconverts HD-SDI to SDI on the fly. I use that. Note I also have the CS3 suite and though it has its uses, I don't edit with it.

[Paul Joy]

Thanks for the update Steve.

So that leaves the question open then, what's the best way to end up with 50i footage for DVD using the EX1? It seems logical that it would be possible to create a 50i output from a 720p/50 clip but I'm not sure if there's a way just using FCP & Compressor.

Paul.