XDCAM EX possibly at $6k

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

...price (one EX with two cards is pretty much the same price as one HVX with two cards...

Exactly. The cost of an EX1 with a few hours' worth of memory cards will likely be less than the equivalent HVX200 setup, especially if the EX1 works with generic ''SSD'' memory. You can currently buy 32GB SSD cards for a little over $500 which would hold at least 100 minutes of full-quality XDCAM footage, or $1000 for over three hours of continuous recording time. 32GB P2 cards are expected to cost $1800 for 32-80 minutes (depending on recording mode), or $3600 for under three hours of recording. For event work in particular this is a no-brainer in favor of the EX1, and if the low-light performance is better (as expected) then that's a clincher for high-end event videographers.

I see nothing sad about this: the EX1 appears to be a great camera at a reasonable price considering what it does. It won't knock off the HVX200 for all purposes but it should sure as heck give it a run for our money...

[Matthew Dunn]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

It won't knock off the HVX200 for all purposes but it should sure as heck give it a run for our money...

I'm interested in this last statement. I am in the process of buying a camera and have held off on an HVX-200 specifically to see whether the EX would change my mind.

I am primarily interested in indie narrative stuff, with perhaps the occasional documentary. Just out of interest, in what applications do you see the EX not knocking off the HVX?

Thanks in advance,
Matt

[Chris Barcellos]

I've been messing around with 35mm adapters on my FX1, and with a Canon too, trying to develop that more "filmic" feel. With the 1/2 chip, and progressive output, this camera might make me put that stuff away.

Kevin, when you get yours, would love to see some footage shot against one of these adapter set ups :)

[Peter Jefferson]

" if the low-light performance is better (as expected) then that's a clincher for high-end event videographers"

Not only that, but noise perfomance and codec performance should easily outperform most of what is available today in this form factor vs price

The bigest issue event videograpehrs face today is low light performane were not talking simply capturing a dark area, but im refering to ACCURATE colour rendition in lower lit environments.

Theres a huge difference here.. The codec itself, put up against DVCproHD, is comparable.
Out in the real world of events, i can tell you that not many people will notice the difference between the 2. Clients certainly will not, and youll even be hard pressed to differentiate HDV. Its not as black and white as the marketing blurbs make them out to be

Certainly they have their differences, but for events, the P2 transfer speed and capacity just doesnt hold up.. Ive tried... Price is also a major factor as is image resolution and colour rendition.

The CMOS size, inherant DoF control and zero scaling requirements at capture are the biggest differentiating factors here.

If this camera can retain image sharpness and accurate colour response in low light with gain levels up to 18 being as clean as they are in SD, (and i believe 18db WILL be clean as the sensor itself is inherantly more responsive,) then it will definately set the standard for future gear of this nature

From here, i wouldnt be surprised if Pana are working on a a HPX handheld equivalent using AVCHD to go up against the EX monster...

[Chris Forbes]

Originally Posted by Matthew Dunn

I am primarily interested in indie narrative stuff, with perhaps the occasional documentary. Just out of interest, in what applications do you see the EX not knocking off the HVX?

The HVX 200 still has the far better codec. But in my mind the XDCAM EX more than makes up for that with it's other features.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Matthew Dunn

Just out of interest, in what applications do you see the EX not knocking off the HVX?

I mainly said that for the benefit of those who like the HVX200 and/or need to work in the DVCProHD format, but overall I'd say the HVX200 is now seriously outclassed. The main things the HVX has going for it are a frame-based recording format and 4:2:2 color space, which could be useful to some people in situations involving a lot of motion or requiring extensive color processing. However, the value of those features is hampered by the low-resolution sensor of the HVX200 and horizontally compressed recording, which might not do any better than the EX1 in practical terms in demanding situations. We'll get a better idea of that once we see some hands-on reviews and sample footage from shipping versions of the EX1.

Plus the high cost of P2 cards is ridiculous for anything other than short-take projects, so if the SXS cards are significantly cheaper that's pretty much end of discussion for some of us. If I was spending over $5K on an HD camera today I wouldn't even look twice at the HVX200 unless I knew that was what I needed for some particular reason, and the people who fall into that category probably already own the HVX.

[Jason Strongfield]

Our production studio has shot and owned a bunch of cameras in the past (dvx100b, XH-A1, XL-H1, Hvx200 and (shot on a lot with Sony Z1), and in our humble opinion the Panasonic gamma is the closest to being the most "cinematic" and film like (although its not going to give you that 35mm look). Canon and Sony has that discovery channel HD video look, very crisp and detailed.

DVCPRO HD is also 4:2:2 which gives you advantage when "keying". There is a huge possibility that this EX is going to be our first sony cam. Cannot wait to see first real footage from this 1/2" EX.

[Matthew Dunn]

Originally Posted by Chris Forbes

The HVX 200 still has the far better codec. But in my mind the XDCAM EX more than makes up for that with it's other features.

Agreed. At this point (and based upon what we know), the advantages I see to the EX (for my purposes) are:

1) Cheaper media
2) Higher resolution (natively)
3) Filmic DOF w/o an adapter

I would really like to see footage to see whether #3 is solid as has been touted. Personally, over and under crank at 1 fps probably isn't of much more practical use than the current abilities of the HVX-200 and the low-light sensitivity is probably a less significant issue on a well-lit set.

All in all, though, the EX looks like a very nice addition for Sony.

[Peter Jefferson]

[QUOTE=Chris Barcellos;740266]I've been messing around with 35mm adapters on my FX1, and with a Canon too, trying to develop that more "filmic" feel. With the 1/2 chip, and progressive output, this camera might make me put that stuff away.
QUOTE]

if youve ever used a 1/2 camera, the differences in DoF control are apparent.. to a point of slapping you in the face... not as shallow as an adapter admitadly, but considering the focal length of the lens in addition to the size of the sensor itself, you will get VERY close performance... dont forget, most filmic shots are in fact shot with the cam about 20metres away from the subject and zoomed through to fit the frame. DoF is relative and the lack of want for these peripherals IMO will be another selling point.

Understandably, it wont be the same as an adapter, but the image will inherantly be richer/accurate than HDV due to codec but the sensor itself will also assist.. not to mention the superior lens

"I am primarily interested in indie narrative stuff, with perhaps the occasional documentary. Just out of interest, in what applications do you see the EX not knocking off the HVX?"

At this point, i can only say codec and weight. Other might find somethign else.. The HVX DVCproHD codec in my eye is superior for certain uses. BUT the camera itself scales up to HD res. As for weight, the EX is apparently 3kg
I also feel that no other camera (that ive come across to this date) will ever be able to emulate or reproduce the "panasonic look" The DR of pana cameras is IMO far surperior straight out of teh camera and the gamma controls within the cameras are very accurate. Even the DVX curves are closer to what one might expect when PP any given shot

When the HVX was launched, i once said that i believe the camera was before its time. The workflow and cost requirements of P2 have locked the HVX into a format, codec and market demographic which is workable, but its not workable for everyone. Sadly, i have no choice but to jump ship away from panasonic simply becuase the recording format and P2 cost simply isnt justified for what i do

I stand by that now, but Sony it seems have looked upon technology and how its evolved and have adapted to accomodate.
In turn, almost everyone can use this camera for any purpose.. the fact i can run it conintuously for over 2 hours straight without changing cards is a huge deal for me.
Then if i have to transfer footage, my times are at least 4 to 6 times faster than relatime. P2 isnt this fast.
Out in the field, you can easily work an entire days shoot, like a wedding, using only 2 16gb cards and a lappy with an external drive. The tranfer speeds are fast enough to not break the flow of recording, and this is the fundamental difference between the P2 and the SxS.. size codec etc dont mean anything.. its when your transfering that it all comes together

[Matthew Dunn]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

I mainly said that for the benefit of those who like the HVX200 and/or need to work in the DVCProHD format, but overall I'd say the HVX200 is now seriously outclassed. The main things the HVX has going for it are a frame-based recording format and 4:2:2 color space, which could be useful to some people in situations involving a lot of motion or requiring extensive color processing. However, the value of those features is hampered by the low-resolution sensor of the HVX200 and horizontally compressed recording, which might not do any better than the EX1 in practical terms in demanding situations. We'll get a better idea of that once we see some hands-on reviews and sample footage from shipping versions of the EX1.

Plus the high cost of P2 cards is ridiculous for anything other than short-take projects, so if the SXS cards are significantly cheaper that's pretty much end of discussion for some of us. If I was spending over $5K on an HD camera today I wouldn't even look twice at the HVX200 unless I knew that was what I needed for some particular reason, and the people who fall into that category probably already own the HVX.

Fair enough. Thanks for the response.

[Tim Polster]

I just noticed the 0% financing for 24 months on the sony Europe site.

This will be a major incentive to go with Sony.

I hope they offer this in the US.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Chris Forbes

The HVX 200 still has the far better codec.

That's a debatable statement given that the EX1 records full-raster 1080p video while the HVX200 uses horizontal recording compression. The trade-off betweeen GOP-based and frame-based recording will also be a factor here, plus as Jason noted the overall 'look' of the footage will probably be different. My guess it that people who like footage from the HVX200 will still like it after the EX1 ships, and people who are happy with the Sony look will really like the EX1.

[Joe Carney]

I think the statements about the memory cards may be off. These cards are specifically made for Sony by SanDisk, with proprietary insides connected to an industry standard interface (expresscard). Not sure if you can use off the shelf SSD cards, or if there are any with native expresscard interface besides these.

Sanddisk is selling 32gig cards with SATA HD interface, and hooking up 2 to a standard SATA Raid 0 gets you pretty good performance.

[Matt Jeppsen]

Originally Posted by Matthew Dunn

3) Filmic DOF w/o an adapter

With all due respect, I don't think this new camcorder is going to slacken the use of 35mm adapters. I personally can't wait to try my Brevis adapter on the EX...though with a 77mm front thread, I think adapters are going to need a redesign, or a new achro at very least.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Jason Strongfield

If the EX is US $8875 as reported earlier on an euripean site, i rather add $1525 more and get TWO hvx200.

But then that's comparing the European price for the EX1 to the US price for the HVX200, so don't be too sure it's going to work out that way. And don't forget to factor in the price of memory cards when comparing those two cameras, which should quickly even out any cost difference without memory.