Vignette problem

Piotr Wozniacki · March 12th, 2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlos Symeon

I hear you Piotr,

I guess I needed some reassurance.

Sure thing - never give up! Sony just owes some effective fix to us.

Bob Grant · March 12th, 2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlos Symeon

After talking for at least twenty minutes this morning with the help-desk and stating the problems of the camcorder (vignetting-back focus) SONY UK sent me an e-mail asking me what do I mean exactly by Vignetting and Back Focus and if I can elaborate.
Is it possible that they do not have a clue? Phleeeeease...
We are professionals and thank God internet has been an eye opener for over a decade now. How can they ask such questions?
Haven't they heard anything about those issues?
What planet do they live on?

Back during the problems with the V1P/E our dealer rang to say our V1 was delayed as it needed a mod. He was really taken aback when I told him what was being fixed and how it was being fixed. So no, mostly Sony and their dealer network is not web savvy.
More to the point though, the dealer network and the various Sonys are not an optics company. Even the F900 has issues with lens mounts, I recall someone (Claimont?) is modding one of the high end Sony cameras to fix an ND filter issue. This stuff is harder and more expensive to get right than we might appreciate. Perhaps this is one road to persue, take the camera to a facility with optical test facilites and get a written report with facts and figures.

Dennis Joseph · March 13th, 2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

Back during the problems with the V1P/E our dealer rang to say our V1 was delayed as it needed a mod. He was really taken aback when I told him what was being fixed and how it was being fixed. So no, mostly Sony and their dealer network is not web savvy.
More to the point though, the dealer network and the various Sonys are not an optics company. Even the F900 has issues with lens mounts, I recall someone (Claimont?) is modding one of the high end Sony cameras to fix an ND filter issue. This stuff is harder and more expensive to get right than we might appreciate. Perhaps this is one road to persue, take the camera to a facility with optical test facilites and get a written report with facts and figures.

For North American users wanting to contact Sony about any vignetting or backfocus call 1-800-883-6817, option 2-5-2

Gerald Loidl · March 17th, 2008, 09:26 AM

I got my camera back from Sony from the second repair attempt 2 hours ago - and guess what - it returned in even worse condition. Now the backfocus is horrible even with ND OFF. The camera is unusable now.
This sucks big time! I´m so p*ssed!
I bought the camera 5 weeks ago and it did never really work!

Steven Thomas · March 17th, 2008, 09:41 AM

Man, I know that feeling.

I sent my first camera in for vignetting and it came back a tad worse. instead of the vignette seen at the top two corners, it was a bit less, but viewed on all four corners.

My current replacement camera has it in the top two corners, but it's not as bad as my first. I'm to dang scared to send it in for adjustment.

I'm not sure if they really know how to correctly adjust it. Oddly, i've heard some say they've had success in the adjustment.

I'm sorry to hear about your issue. If they can not fix the camera, it should be replaced.

Also, that's odd about your back focus. Apparently, they shifted something during the work. I'm not sure why they are having a problem with back focus.
My guess is they are not sure how to correctly adjust it.

We are hearing more and more about back focus is bad right out of the box!

Dennis Joseph · March 17th, 2008, 01:39 PM

I'm sure this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it-- how do you quickly and in the most simplest way, check if you are having any backfocus issues with ND filters on?

Pavlos Symeon · March 17th, 2008, 01:50 PM

We need to take action.
This is totally unacceptable and unprofessional on SONY's behalf.
Today I sent my two EX1s (Netherlands Service) with the well known backfocus and vignetting problems.
My experience with service (called from Athens, Greece the Prime Support in UK) from the beginning was really annoying. I was talking to a lady at Prime support when at the same time in the background you could hear screaming and loud laughters like they were having some sort of party. At some point the lady who could hardly hear what I was trying to explain to her, she paused and said "excuse me sir but there is a lot of noise in hear and I can't hear you. She put me on hold and probably she told the others in the background to shut up and then she came back on the line to continue our conversation.
You tell me how professional does this sound and how can you trust THE Prime Support reps of a company when you face a situation like that, put aside the double returns and no fixes of other people's equipment.
Maybe it's time act I say. We really need our equipment for our jobs and nobody can play around with our integrity (towards our clients) for so long and in such a massive way.
Any thoughts welcome.

Mathieu Ghekiere · March 17th, 2008, 02:14 PM

Can I ask, as someone who will buy the camera shortly, how big the problem is? I agree that if there are many problems that you should act, especially as you all have clients and stuff, but are there also non-faulty camera's out there?

Piotr Wozniacki · March 17th, 2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavlos Symeon

We need to take action.
This is totally unacceptable and unprofessional on SONY's behalf.
Today I sent my two EX1s (Netherlands Service) with the well known backfocus and vignetting problems.
My experience with service (called from Athens, Greece the Prime Support in UK) from the beginning was really annoying. I was talking to a lady at Prime support when at the same time in the background you could hear screaming and loud laughters like they were having some sort of party. At some point the lady who could hardly hear what I was trying to explain to her, she paused and said "excuse me sir but there is a lot of noise in hear and I can't hear you. She put me on hold and probably she told the others in the background to shut up and then she came back on the line to continue our conversation.
You tell me how professional does this sound and how can you trust THE Prime Support reps of a company when you face a situation like that, put aside the double returns and no fixes of other people's equipment.
Maybe it's time act I say. We really need our equipment for our jobs and nobody can play around with our integrity (towards our clients) for so long and in such a massive way.
Any thoughts welcome.

Pavlos, stop spending your money on phone calls - e-mail the Prime Support with a full description of your problem, and demand that they pick you camera on a day that is convenient to YOU. If they don't return it fixed within 7 days, demand a loaner camera. After they fail to repair it within 14 days, demand a replacement camera. They are obliged to comply - this is what Prime Support is about.

This is how it worked with me V1E and DR60 last year.

Rob Katz · March 17th, 2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Joseph

I'm sure this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it-- how do you quickly and in the most simplest way, check if you are having any backfocus issues with ND filters on?

perhaps someone can please state specifically how one would go about checking for each of the sony ex1 issues:

-vignetting

-ca

-backfocus

thanks in advance

be well

rob

Steven Thomas · March 17th, 2008, 03:36 PM

Rob,

Here's a general setup to determine if your PMW-EX1 camera has the vignette issue:

1. Set the EX1 for FULL manual control.

2. Set the cameras focus at infinity. (furthest focus range).

3. Position your camera on a tripod with "Steady Shot" OFF (OIS OFF).

4. Aim your camera on a white or neutral color wall (not black).

5. Start with camera at full wide (5.8mm) and zoom all the way in and verify
no objects come into your view throughout the zoom travel.

6. Do not over expose the image. Actually intentionally under expose the
image.

7. Now with your camera set to wide 5.8mm focal length, start recording.

8. While recording SLOWLY zoom up to 40mm. The problem is known to be
seen in the 8mm - 25mm range. So SLOWY zoom through this focal
range. If you're concerned it may be an issue out of this range, you can zoom through a greater range.

9. Import your footage into your computer and look for the vignetting issue.
IMPORTANT: When viewed on a monitor while recording, you may not see
the issue due to the monitors overscan. View your capture footage on your computer.

How to check Back Focus:

1. To allow for far focus, setup the camera outdoors.

2. With ND filters off, zoom in ALL the way and focus on a distant object over 25 feet away.
Keep your aperture wide open at f1.9. Depending on the available light, you may need to increase your shutter speed to not over expose.

3. Once you've focused on your distant object, zoom out full wide.
The wide image should still remain in focus.

4. Repeat this test with each ND setting.

5. Also, repeat the test focusing on the distant object without the ND filter and then engaging an ND filter when zooming out wide.

The camera should remain in focus regardless of the ND setting.

Pavlos Symeon · March 17th, 2008, 04:11 PM

Piotr the cameras have been sent today to the Netherlands Sony service center, so I am in waiting and see kind of situation. What scares me is what I read from others (two repairs and camera came back in worse condition)
I have lots of two camera assignments lined up in a months period and I am scared ****less to the the prospect of not having the cameras in tip top condition (as they should be) when the time arrives let alone the learning curve period.
I hear what you say about loaners and replacement. Who will guarantee me proper function loaners and replacements though. Sony's tracking record so far with the specific model is not encouraging.
Thank you for the advice though.

John Hewat · March 17th, 2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Pavlos, stop spending your money on phone calls - e-mail the Prime Support with a full description of your problem, and demand that they pick you camera on a day that is convenient to YOU. If they don't return it fixed within 7 days, demand a loaner camera. After they fail to repair it within 14 days, demand a replacement camera. They are obliged to comply - this is what Prime Support is about.

This is how it worked with me V1E and DR60 last year.

Is this "Prime Support" something that exists anywhere in the world? ie: Australia?

I know I just kept getting passed around between dealer, service agent and Sony, when I had to take my EX1 back for the vignette fix. Nobody wanted anything to do with me. I'm curious now as to whether this Prime Support applies to all EX1 customers or just some parts of the world.

Bob Grant · March 17th, 2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hewat

Is this "Prime Support" something that exists anywhere in the world? ie: Australia?

Nothing like that down under. Sony AU is a different Sony.

Leonard Levy · March 17th, 2008, 08:30 PM

Sorry but I need to correct Steven's explanation of how to check backfocus
Your camera aperture should absolutely be set at fully wide open f 1.9 all the way - , not 2.8 or 4 . This is critical as you don't want to be confused by depth of field. Aside from that his method sounds fine.

I do want to repeat Steven's suggestion though that you want to check this on as big a monitor as you can - so you may need to record then look at a large computer monitor.

You can also focus at telephoto then change the filters to see if your focus point stays the same - Do the same wide angle. The wideangle is what we are most concerned about. That's where it will go off and you won't see it while shooting.

How to check Back Focus:

1. To allow for far focus, setup the camera outdoors.

2. With ND filters off, zoom in ALL the way and focus on a distant object over 25 feet away.
Keep your aperture wide open at f1.9. Depending on the available light, you may need to increase your shutter speed to not over expose.

3. Once you've focused on your distant object, zoom out full wide.
The wide image should still remain in focus.

4. Repeat this test with each ND setting.

5. Also, repeat the test focusing on the distant object without the ND filter and then engaging an ND filter when zooming out wide.

6. Flip through filters and no filter after getting a good focus both at telephoto and full wide. It should remain the same.

The camera should remain in focus regardless of the ND setting.

Lenny

March 17th, 2008, 01:39 PM	#621
Dennis Joseph Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 206	How to check for Backfocus issues? I'm sure this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it-- how do you quickly and in the most simplest way, check if you are having any backfocus issues with ND filters on?

March 17th, 2008, 01:50 PM	#622
Pavlos Symeon Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 48	Tip of the iceberg We need to take action. This is totally unacceptable and unprofessional on SONY's behalf. Today I sent my two EX1s (Netherlands Service) with the well known backfocus and vignetting problems. My experience with service (called from Athens, Greece the Prime Support in UK) from the beginning was really annoying. I was talking to a lady at Prime support when at the same time in the background you could hear screaming and loud laughters like they were having some sort of party. At some point the lady who could hardly hear what I was trying to explain to her, she paused and said "excuse me sir but there is a lot of noise in hear and I can't hear you. She put me on hold and probably she told the others in the background to shut up and then she came back on the line to continue our conversation. You tell me how professional does this sound and how can you trust THE Prime Support reps of a company when you face a situation like that, put aside the double returns and no fixes of other people's equipment. Maybe it's time act I say. We really need our equipment for our jobs and nobody can play around with our integrity (towards our clients) for so long and in such a massive way. Any thoughts welcome.

March 17th, 2008, 02:14 PM	#623
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Can I ask, as someone who will buy the camera shortly, how big the problem is? I agree that if there are many problems that you should act, especially as you all have clients and stuff, but are there also non-faulty camera's out there? __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

March 17th, 2008, 03:36 PM	#626
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Rob, Here's a general setup to determine if your PMW-EX1 camera has the vignette issue: 1. Set the EX1 for FULL manual control. 2. Set the cameras focus at infinity. (furthest focus range). 3. Position your camera on a tripod with "Steady Shot" OFF (OIS OFF). 4. Aim your camera on a white or neutral color wall (not black). 5. Start with camera at full wide (5.8mm) and zoom all the way in and verify no objects come into your view throughout the zoom travel. 6. Do not over expose the image. Actually intentionally under expose the image. 7. Now with your camera set to wide 5.8mm focal length, start recording. 8. While recording SLOWLY zoom up to 40mm. The problem is known to be seen in the 8mm - 25mm range. So SLOWY zoom through this focal range. If you're concerned it may be an issue out of this range, you can zoom through a greater range. 9. Import your footage into your computer and look for the vignetting issue. IMPORTANT: When viewed on a monitor while recording, you may not see the issue due to the monitors overscan. View your capture footage on your computer. How to check Back Focus: 1. To allow for far focus, setup the camera outdoors. 2. With ND filters off, zoom in ALL the way and focus on a distant object over 25 feet away. Keep your aperture wide open at f1.9. Depending on the available light, you may need to increase your shutter speed to not over expose. 3. Once you've focused on your distant object, zoom out full wide. The wide image should still remain in focus. 4. Repeat this test with each ND setting. 5. Also, repeat the test focusing on the distant object without the ND filter and then engaging an ND filter when zooming out wide. The camera should remain in focus regardless of the ND setting. Last edited by Steven Thomas; March 17th, 2008 at 09:29 PM.

March 17th, 2008, 08:30 PM	#630
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Sorry but I need to correct Steven's explanation of how to check backfocus Your camera aperture should absolutely be set at fully wide open f 1.9 all the way - , not 2.8 or 4 . This is critical as you don't want to be confused by depth of field. Aside from that his method sounds fine. I do want to repeat Steven's suggestion though that you want to check this on as big a monitor as you can - so you may need to record then look at a large computer monitor. You can also focus at telephoto then change the filters to see if your focus point stays the same - Do the same wide angle. The wideangle is what we are most concerned about. That's where it will go off and you won't see it while shooting. How to check Back Focus: 1. To allow for far focus, setup the camera outdoors. 2. With ND filters off, zoom in ALL the way and focus on a distant object over 25 feet away. Keep your aperture wide open at f1.9. Depending on the available light, you may need to increase your shutter speed to not over expose. 3. Once you've focused on your distant object, zoom out full wide. The wide image should still remain in focus. 4. Repeat this test with each ND setting. 5. Also, repeat the test focusing on the distant object without the ND filter and then engaging an ND filter when zooming out wide. 6. Flip through filters and no filter after getting a good focus both at telephoto and full wide. It should remain the same. The camera should remain in focus regardless of the ND setting. Lenny Last edited by Leonard Levy; March 17th, 2008 at 10:50 PM.

March 17th, 2008, 09:26 AM	#619
Gerald Loidl Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Austria Posts: 122	I got my camera back from Sony from the second repair attempt 2 hours ago - and guess what - it returned in even worse condition. Now the backfocus is horrible even with ND OFF. The camera is unusable now. This sucks big time! I´m so p*ssed! I bought the camera 5 weeks ago and it did never really work!

March 17th, 2008, 09:41 AM	#620
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Man, I know that feeling. I sent my first camera in for vignetting and it came back a tad worse. instead of the vignette seen at the top two corners, it was a bit less, but viewed on all four corners. My current replacement camera has it in the top two corners, but it's not as bad as my first. I'm to dang scared to send it in for adjustment. I'm not sure if they really know how to correctly adjust it. Oddly, i've heard some say they've had success in the adjustment. I'm sorry to hear about your issue. If they can not fix the camera, it should be replaced. Also, that's odd about your back focus. Apparently, they shifted something during the work. I'm not sure why they are having a problem with back focus. My guess is they are not sure how to correctly adjust it. We are hearing more and more about back focus is bad right out of the box!

March 17th, 2008, 04:11 PM	#627
Pavlos Symeon Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 48	Piotr the cameras have been sent today to the Netherlands Sony service center, so I am in waiting and see kind of situation. What scares me is what I read from others (two repairs and camera came back in worse condition) I have lots of two camera assignments lined up in a months period and I am scared ****less to the the prospect of not having the cameras in tip top condition (as they should be) when the time arrives let alone the learning curve period. I hear what you say about loaners and replacement. Who will guarantee me proper function loaners and replacements though. Sony's tracking record so far with the specific model is not encouraging. Thank you for the advice though.