Is the EX the official HVX200 killer? - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old November 26th, 2007, 07:16 PM   #16
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I thought about waiting for the RED mini specs, but honestly the EX1 is the best thing going in this price range. Also, If the mini specs are not even known now, we're talking over two years before you see the first camera.

I also bet it will be close to 10K.
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Old November 26th, 2007, 07:22 PM   #17
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I am afraight you are right ..
And maybe the small RED will be manual only without any auto features. I guess taking the PMW is a good investment, Itīs a political move from Sony to save market shares and to react to the success of the HVX. The cam seems much too good to be a budget sony .. ;)
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Old November 26th, 2007, 07:55 PM   #18
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1920x1080 has been around for a little while in prosumer stuff, the Canon HV20 as well as the Sony V1U both have 1920x1080 CMOS sensors, which is why they do 24P easily. They just record 1440x1080 to tape, but if you record out of the HDMi port you get uncompressed 4:2:2 1920x1080. But these are 1/3" or 1/4" sensors, not 1/2" like the EX.

Anyway the EX looks great, I can't wait to get my hands on one. I definitly think it's going to put a hit in Panasonic's wallet, especially if 3rd parties start making cards for it, that right there would drive the price of cards down and pretty much even out the pricing difference between the Sony and Panasonic.
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Old November 26th, 2007, 10:03 PM   #19
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I just shot with the EX1 this weekend. Oh my... the ergo's alone are very nice (LCD viewfinder setup, lens feel, rotating handle, etc.). IMO, much better than the HVX. And as mentioned earlier, the menu's, button access, viewfinder sharpness.. all so nice to work with.
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Old November 27th, 2007, 04:26 PM   #20
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The EX1 presents a useful alternative to the HVX200 which will have a definite appeal to some but probably not sway those who like the "look" of footage from the Panny camera. If Panasonic wants to strike back they'll need a bigger, better sensor and a more affordable recording solution, perhaps using the AVC-intra codec at a bit rate of up to 50 Mbps. But one good thing about the EX1 which Panasonic will have a hard time touching is that the EX1 footage can play as is on most computers and Blu-ray devices: that's a big practical benefit. The EX1 defines a new niche with no real competition at the moment.
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Old November 27th, 2007, 08:12 PM   #21
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Whichever camera manufacturer wants to "strike back" should introduce a Cineform codec as a on-camera recording option.

Cineform provides free player, so the footage *will* play on any PC that is suitable for mpeg2 playback, I believe.

Pana's DVCPRO HD is Mac-only codec with lower resolution than Cineform. Sony's mpeg2 35Mps still uses 4:2:0 color space and introduces blocky artifacts on fast motion, even at this bitrate - if I read Adam Wilt's review correctly.

Cineform is 4:2:2 1920x1080, with 2x the size of mpeg2 but NO artifacts; and it is now cross-platform.

Cineform lets me edit everything in real time. It is also a wonderful codec for the large-screen *playback*.

I don't relate to Cineform except as a very satisfied customer, and I feel like Cineform has become a new standard. Probably thousands more prosumer equipment users feel the same.

Then why not introduce it as on-camera recording codec choice?

I would honestly forfeit any other format and settle on Cineform only if given a choice. It's just practical.

Do I look like "The End Is Near... Get Cineform!" guy? :)
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Old November 27th, 2007, 08:13 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Alex Raskin View Post
Whichever camera manufacturer wants to "strike back" should introduce a Cineform codec as a on-camera recording option.
You got the right !
This is my dream.
This is why I'm interested in Cineform's plans for a portable HDMI recorder.
I really want a portable SDI recorder, but if they accomodate power for an HDLINK, I will be able to use the HDMI version.
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Old November 27th, 2007, 08:24 PM   #23
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Steven, you see, if Sony EX1 had Cineform recording to the SxS card on-camera, you would not need any external recorders.
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Old November 27th, 2007, 08:29 PM   #24
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I know, that's my dream, but not a reality. The Cineform HDMI recorder is supposed to be a reality.
Although, wouldn't it be nice if someone (Sony) designed a cam that would allow you to flash different capture codecs and Cineform was one of them!
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Old November 28th, 2007, 02:45 AM   #25
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If Panasonic wants to strike back they'll need a bigger, better sensor, and a more affordable recording solution, perhaps using the AVC-intra codec at a bit rate of up to 50 Mbps.
Assuming by "bigger" you mean higher resolution -- this is NOT simple to do since:

1) Panasonic claims the virture of using "lower" rez. chips is their larger element size. Increasing CCD resolution without increasing chip size will counter their argument.

2) Panasonic uses the same resolution chips on their much more expensive camcorders. To increase the "HVX300's" resolution to meet or match the EX1 would result in their newer more expensive camcorders offering lower resolution.

3) Increasing chip size to 1/2-in would be an admission that Sony's already gone the right way. Same issue with the use of CMOS.

If 50Mbps AVC-I can be added to ALL P2 camcorders -- this, along with the much larger P2 capacities would help Panasonic a lot. But:

Considering the additional chroma samples in AVC-I -- its 50Mbps can NOT be compared to 50Mbps MPEG-2 4:2:0. AVC-I is more like 35Mbps MPEG-2 4:2:0.

But, what about the claimed 2X greater efficiency of AVC-I? While AVC-I "may" be 2X more efficient than I-frame only MPEG-2 -- is it really 2X more efficient than long GOP MPEG-2? I suspect it is not. Which means 35Mbps long GOP 4:2:0 MPEG-2 and 50Mbps I-frame 4:2:2 AVC-I provide just about the same bit-rate compression. (Of course, AVC-I offers 4:2:2.)

Does anyone know what the AVC-I upgrade consists of? A second, or a different, codec chip? Or, just firmware?
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Old November 28th, 2007, 08:58 AM   #26
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Assuming by "bigger" you mean higher resolution -- this is NOT simple to do...
Exactly. As things stand now it doesn't seem likely Panasonic will increase the resolution of their sensors to full HD quality, so they probably won't challenge Sony in that regard. What are the chances of Canon coming up with a 1/2 inch sensor in a camera priced to compete with the EX1?
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Old November 28th, 2007, 09:12 AM   #27
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I hear where you're coming from on this one. The HPX500 did not offer the higher rez sensors. But, I really believe the EX1 is about to change manufactures current upcoming plans. If this camera turns out as good as the specs state, there are going to be a lot of us buying this cam.

I've already heard there are quite a few ditching their other cams for the EX1.
I would not be surprised if next year we see a shoulder mount version of this cam from Sony.
On the other hand, there is one - it's called the F350. :)
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Old November 28th, 2007, 09:24 AM   #28
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My own hunch is that Sony will replace the F330. The EX1 seems much more capable feature to feature compared to the F330 and a shoulder mount version would probably fall into the F330 price point.

What may happen is that such camera will record to both disc and card or they'll drop the disc and the card based camera will be a bit less expensive.

I do suspect that they'll be an newer version of the 350/350 that will record to both disc and card also.

Keep in mind though that the Panasonic HPX500 uses 2/3" CCD sensors at about $14,000 so at that price point the F330 equivalent replacement might not be the clearest choice.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 09:34 AM   #29
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I know the HPX500 is 2/3" and is very clean. I was only refering to its resolution. Sensitivity and noise is only one aspect, although a very important one!
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Old November 28th, 2007, 10:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
Keep in mind though that the Panasonic HPX500 uses 2/3" CCD sensors at about $14,000 so at that price point the F330 equivalent replacement might not be the clearest choice.
That's a different comparison than the EX1 market niche, but it would be interesting to see how the HPX500 compares in terms of perceivable resolution. According to a post I found here from Jan Livingston the HPX500 has a native resolution of ~620,000 pixels, compared to over 2 million pixels in the EX1. Of course resolution isn't everything, but starting with 3X resolution at the sensor just might make a difference.
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