A comparison of the Sony EX1 and the Canon XL-H1

Piotr Wozniacki · February 26th, 2009, 08:28 AM

Very nice Dan, so it really IS 4:2:2 - I think we've established it already in other threads.

But the questions remains (in never was answered by CD): is it true 10 bit, or just 8 but wrapped in 10 bit for HD-SDI compatibility?

Michael Galvan · February 26th, 2009, 08:54 AM

Well the Flash XDR contains an 8-bit codec, so they won't be able to tell from XDR footage ...

Why don't we just test this sometime. Does anyone have an EX1/3 that can do this? If anyone is in NYC, I have a Canon XL H1S and the AJA IO HD (which can record to 10-bit ProRess 422HQ), so I have the infrastructure to capture in the proper codec.

Depending on schedules, I may be free to do this at some point in the future.

Dan Keaton · February 26th, 2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Very nice Dan, so it really IS 4:2:2 - I think we've established it already in other threads.

But the questions remains (in never was answered by CD): is it true 10 bit, or just 8 but wrapped in 10 bit for HD-SDI compatibility?

Dear Piotr,

I personally do not know if the EX1/3 is 8 bits in a 10-bit HD-SDI stream. I have not run any tests.

All MPEG2 is 8-bits.

But, full raster MPEG2, at a high-bit rate Long-GOP can produce amazing images.

We have had industry experts project our images on a 25' screen with a high end Christie projector. It works well.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 26th, 2009, 09:42 AM

Dear Dan,

I have no doubts whatsoever that FlashXDR (and hopefully NanoFlash, which I have on order) are capable of producing stunning images out of the full raster EX output. What I'd like to know is whether the future upgrade to 10 bit uncompressed is worthwhile with this particular camera.

Dan Keaton · February 26th, 2009, 10:00 AM

Dear Piotr,

That is a hard question. We will have to run some tests.

We believe that the EX1/EX3 produces 10-bit HD-SDI output.

We do not keep an EX1/EX3 permemently in our lab.

I believe that we have not actually tested this in our lab, I just checked with our engineers.

We do have the equipment to test this and we will.

Obviously we have a stake in the 8-bit versus 10-bit discussion as the Flash XDR can currently record at only 8-bits. The future Full Uncompressed support will support 8 bit or 10 bits.

Our experience has been and very experienced people with very expensive cameras that can record full uncompressed at 10-bit has been that it just does not make much of a difference.

Richard Welnowski has spend weeks running these tests with his Thompson Viper. He finds it very difficult to see a difference, even at 300% magnification of the images.

So Piotr, we will test this as soon as we can get a EX1/EX3 in our lab.

I hope this helps.

Peter Moretti · February 27th, 2009, 01:52 AM

Dan,

Thank you so much for being willing to look into this ?. BTW, I would think a good test would be to open footage in a ten bit project, and select swatches using the eyedroper tool.

If the ten-bit R, G and B values never increment/decrement by one, two or three, then it's eight footage. If they do change in amounts other than +/-4, then it's ten bit footage. No?

Dan Keaton · February 27th, 2009, 02:38 AM

Dear Peter,

Yes, that would be an interesting test.

Another would be to look at the values with the eye dropper.

If one is in a 10-bit timeline (or canvas), and finds an odd value, then the data is 10 bit.

By odd, I mean ending in 1, 3, 5, 7, 9.

Peter Moretti · February 27th, 2009, 04:03 AM

Right b/c if 8-bit values are just scaled to ten bits, they will equal their original 8-bit values multiplied by 2^2, i.e. 4. And any whole number multiplied by 4 is even.

But if, on the other hand, they are values with ten significant bits, then odd numbers will be present as well. Very cool.

Michael Galvan,

I wonder if you'd be willing to do either of these two tests (Dan's version or mine) with your XL-H1 HD-SDI footage? It would be a nice confirmation of the methodology. ;)

P.S. So in the case of the Canon HDV cameras, which do supply "only" 8-bit color out of their HD-SDI ports, I guess it's a misnomer to say the "eight bit data is padded with two zeros" to fit in a ten bit stream. What really happens is the eight bit values are scaled by a factor of four. Is that correct?

... Michael, a test at your convenience would be nice :).

P.P.S. Actually, I guess a waveform monitor set to a 10-bit scale would show empty horizontal bands if the data were eight-bit scaled to ten-bit. ... Okay, enough of thinking about this for one night, LOL.

P.P.P.S. But, an eight-bit to ten-bit converter could dither the values, in which case, these tests would not work.

Dan Keaton · February 27th, 2009, 08:51 AM

I checked with our engineers.

We checked an EX1 last year and found that it is indeed 10-Bit HD-SDI.

I hope this helps.

Peter Moretti · February 28th, 2009, 02:29 AM

If they are correct, which I have little reason to doubt, then that is great news, and puts the EX's on par with some very powerful cameras.

To all those who have said it's ten-bit, I tip my hat. You were right.

Thanks very much Dan.

Dan Keaton · February 28th, 2009, 04:32 AM

Dear Peter,

We have used the Sony EX1 with the Flash XDR and the images are just stunning.

We produced a small "Flash XDR Promo" with the EX1 + Flash XDR and a Canon XL H1 + Flash XDR. All footage was record 100 Mbps Long-GOP. All product shows are with the Canon XL H1, all others are with the Sony EX1.

No color correction was done to the images.

We shot with tungsten lighting and set both cameras to 3800K.

The Flash XDR performed flawlessly for this multiple day shoot.

Our seasoned editor, who is also an educator in this field, was just amazed at the footage.

He had been working in HD for a while and was truely impressed.

Our "Flash XDR Promo" is on YouTube. We would have liked to put it on Vimeo, but we did not want to violate the rules as it is rightfully considered commercial material.

Brian Luce · February 28th, 2009, 06:05 PM

So far I've yet to see any footage of EX footage through SDI. I wish someone would do a shootout.

Dan Keaton · March 1st, 2009, 02:54 AM

Dear Brian,

I attempted to upload some EX1 / Flash XDR footage yesterday.

My sample file was 2.44 GB. After hours of work, I found out that our high-speed hosting site limits the filesize to 2 GB.

I have spoken with our editor, who has the original footage handy, and he will upload some original clips as soon as he can. His equipment is at another location, so this can not be done until next week.

Our office is scheduled to upload some on Monday.

Dan Keaton · March 1st, 2009, 08:39 AM

Dear Brian,

Your DVD with sample files was sent on Thursday.

February 26th, 2009, 08:28 AM	#61
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Very nice Dan, so it really IS 4:2:2 - I think we've established it already in other threads. But the questions remains (in never was answered by CD): is it true 10 bit, or just 8 but wrapped in 10 bit for HD-SDI compatibility? __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 26th, 2009, 08:54 AM	#62
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Well the Flash XDR contains an 8-bit codec, so they won't be able to tell from XDR footage ... Why don't we just test this sometime. Does anyone have an EX1/3 that can do this? If anyone is in NYC, I have a Canon XL H1S and the AJA IO HD (which can record to 10-bit ProRess 422HQ), so I have the infrastructure to capture in the proper codec. Depending on schedules, I may be free to do this at some point in the future. __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

February 26th, 2009, 09:42 AM	#64
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Dear Dan, I have no doubts whatsoever that FlashXDR (and hopefully NanoFlash, which I have on order) are capable of producing stunning images out of the full raster EX output. What I'd like to know is whether the future upgrade to 10 bit uncompressed is worthwhile with this particular camera. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 26th, 2009, 10:00 AM	#65
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Piotr, That is a hard question. We will have to run some tests. We believe that the EX1/EX3 produces 10-bit HD-SDI output. We do not keep an EX1/EX3 permemently in our lab. I believe that we have not actually tested this in our lab, I just checked with our engineers. We do have the equipment to test this and we will. Obviously we have a stake in the 8-bit versus 10-bit discussion as the Flash XDR can currently record at only 8-bits. The future Full Uncompressed support will support 8 bit or 10 bits. Our experience has been and very experienced people with very expensive cameras that can record full uncompressed at 10-bit has been that it just does not make much of a difference. Richard Welnowski has spend weeks running these tests with his Thompson Viper. He finds it very difficult to see a difference, even at 300% magnification of the images. So Piotr, we will test this as soon as we can get a EX1/EX3 in our lab. I hope this helps. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 27th, 2009, 02:38 AM	#67
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Peter, Yes, that would be an interesting test. Another would be to look at the values with the eye dropper. If one is in a 10-bit timeline (or canvas), and finds an odd value, then the data is 10 bit. By odd, I mean ending in 1, 3, 5, 7, 9. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 27th, 2009, 01:52 AM	#66
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Dan, Thank you so much for being willing to look into this ?. BTW, I would think a good test would be to open footage in a ten bit project, and select swatches using the eyedroper tool. If the ten-bit R, G and B values never increment/decrement by one, two or three, then it's eight footage. If they do change in amounts other than +/-4, then it's ten bit footage. No?

February 27th, 2009, 04:03 AM	#68
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Right b/c if 8-bit values are just scaled to ten bits, they will equal their original 8-bit values multiplied by 2^2, i.e. 4. And any whole number multiplied by 4 is even. But if, on the other hand, they are values with ten significant bits, then odd numbers will be present as well. Very cool. Michael Galvan, I wonder if you'd be willing to do either of these two tests (Dan's version or mine) with your XL-H1 HD-SDI footage? It would be a nice confirmation of the methodology. ;) P.S. So in the case of the Canon HDV cameras, which do supply "only" 8-bit color out of their HD-SDI ports, I guess it's a misnomer to say the "eight bit data is padded with two zeros" to fit in a ten bit stream. What really happens is the eight bit values are scaled by a factor of four. Is that correct? ... Michael, a test at your convenience would be nice :). P.P.S. Actually, I guess a waveform monitor set to a 10-bit scale would show empty horizontal bands if the data were eight-bit scaled to ten-bit. ... Okay, enough of thinking about this for one night, LOL. P.P.P.S. But, an eight-bit to ten-bit converter could dither the values, in which case, these tests would not work. Last edited by Peter Moretti; February 27th, 2009 at 04:47 AM.

February 27th, 2009, 08:51 AM	#69
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	I checked with our engineers. We checked an EX1 last year and found that it is indeed 10-Bit HD-SDI. I hope this helps. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 28th, 2009, 02:29 AM	#70
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	If they are correct, which I have little reason to doubt, then that is great news, and puts the EX's on par with some very powerful cameras. To all those who have said it's ten-bit, I tip my hat. You were right. Thanks very much Dan.

February 28th, 2009, 04:32 AM	#71
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Peter, We have used the Sony EX1 with the Flash XDR and the images are just stunning. We produced a small "Flash XDR Promo" with the EX1 + Flash XDR and a Canon XL H1 + Flash XDR. All footage was record 100 Mbps Long-GOP. All product shows are with the Canon XL H1, all others are with the Sony EX1. No color correction was done to the images. We shot with tungsten lighting and set both cameras to 3800K. The Flash XDR performed flawlessly for this multiple day shoot. Our seasoned editor, who is also an educator in this field, was just amazed at the footage. He had been working in HD for a while and was truely impressed. Our "Flash XDR Promo" is on YouTube. We would have liked to put it on Vimeo, but we did not want to violate the rules as it is rightfully considered commercial material. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 28th, 2009, 06:05 PM	#72
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	So far I've yet to see any footage of EX footage through SDI. I wish someone would do a shootout.

March 1st, 2009, 02:54 AM	#73
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Brian, I attempted to upload some EX1 / Flash XDR footage yesterday. My sample file was 2.44 GB. After hours of work, I found out that our high-speed hosting site limits the filesize to 2 GB. I have spoken with our editor, who has the original footage handy, and he will upload some original clips as soon as he can. His equipment is at another location, so this can not be done until next week. Our office is scheduled to upload some on Monday. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

March 1st, 2009, 08:39 AM	#74
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Brian, Your DVD with sample files was sent on Thursday. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia