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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old February 25th, 2008, 08:22 AM   #181
 
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Piotr...

ALL the CINE gamma settings are designed for controlled lighting situations with fairly low contrast ranges. The STD gammas are more appropriate for scenes with wide dynamic range. CINE presets add a varying amount of black stretch at the expense of compressing the hi-lites. Not good for outdoor/sunny days with some shade in the scene. You seem to be somewhat resistant to realizing the effect of black stretch.
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Old February 25th, 2008, 08:48 AM   #182
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If I have been (am not any longer) "somewhat resistant to" anything, Bill, is the CINE settings not necessarily being more punchy than the standard ones (and this is because I got used to what CINE gamma / CINE color mean on the other prosumer Sony cameras, like the V1E I've been using so far). If you don't know what I am talking about, please see my threads in the V1 forum.

As to the effects of black stretch/compress, I am fully aware, and can take full and appropriate advantage of, Bill. If I used such low Black / Black Gamma values in the above examples, has only been to show how compressing blacks adds to the overall picture contrast - and I put a disclaimer about it!
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Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; February 25th, 2008 at 11:20 AM.
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Old February 25th, 2008, 09:43 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
...
As to the effects of black stretch/compress, I am fully aware, and can take full and appropriate advantage of. If I used such low Black / Black Gamma values has been to show how compressing blacks adds to the overall picture contrast.
Piotr:
I'd recommend shooting with Cinegamma (hisat matrix, Black and Blackgamma=0 and detail=off) and then adding Extra Punch in Post.

This is what I did with a simple avisynth script:


DirectShowSource("Path to your.MP4",fps=25,audio=false)
Tweak(sat=1.4,cont=1.2, bright=-10)
LimitedSharpen(ss_x=1.0,ss_y=1.0,Smode=3,strength=50)

Have you tried to add some punch in post?
It seems to work well, even with your "dark" pictures.

I did only use a S graduation curve on your picture ;)


regards Dennis
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Old February 25th, 2008, 09:50 AM   #184
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Dennis,

Everything can be done in post; I guess this is not what this particular thread is about, though:)

My point has been to convey to the other users who - like myself - might have upgraded from the cameras like the V1, that the CINE settings on the EX1 have quite different meaning: the contrasty and punchy look of the grabs I posted above with STD1 gamma, are very similar to what I've been getting with the Cine Gamma 2 on the V1E !

And - if you followed the long thread about the "abrupt highlights clipping" on this forum - to show that, just as Adam Wilt has noticed in his great EX1 review - the cine gammas' handling of it is somewhat tricky. This, you cannot make for in post!

Or if you think you can, please tell me how to repair the ugly blue patches in the sky as shown in my lower left grab above :)
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Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; February 25th, 2008 at 06:37 PM.
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Old February 25th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #185
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So these blue batches also appear when using cinegamma (and not with STD Gamma with standard settings)?
Pretty strange that I've never noticed it, maybe it doesn't occur with mine, don't know.

I tried to reproduce this effect (ok, through a dirty window :D).
But it doesn't seem to appear...


Only CAs are more visible with STD gamma
First one is cine4, second is STD3,
not much difference, though
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Old February 25th, 2008, 11:08 AM   #186
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Yes - basing on my tests so far, the patches can appear with both CINE1 and STD3 (altough with STD3 it is possible to be avoided with its tweakable KNEE settings). Especially in the combination with the Hisat matrix.

On the other hand, the other gammas (I tested Cine4 thoroughly) have the knee low enough to prevent even getting near the offending highligts level, while the STD1 has it high enough (AND tweakable) to almost always be past it (i.e. safe on the right/high side).
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Old February 26th, 2008, 01:22 PM   #187
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Here goes a question that even after considerable experimentation time I am still unsure about the answer to:

- just what is the "Gamma Level" setting?

Unlike all the others, it's not easily trackable in the LCD by my naked eye at all. What is it supposed to do move the entire curve up or down? Or change its slope? Or move its main part, without touching the end points?
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Old February 26th, 2008, 01:30 PM   #188
 
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Gamma level shifts the position of middle gray. In other words, middle gray on the stock EX1, in Cine4, is about 55-60% IRE. A gamma level setting of -8 to -12 shifts middle gray to 50% IRE. The endpoints remain unchanged wjen gamma level is adjusted.

If one looks at a black step wedge on a WFM, middle gray is where the two steps intersect.

Look at Cine4:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=851&c=2
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Old February 26th, 2008, 01:37 PM   #189
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Thanks Bill ;)
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Old February 26th, 2008, 02:48 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
Gamma level shifts the position of middle gray. In other words, middle gray on the stock EX1, in Cine4, is about 55-60% IRE. A gamma level setting of -8 to -12 shifts middle gray to 50% IRE. The endpoints remain unchanged wjen gamma level is adjusted.

If one looks at a black step wedge on a WFM, middle gray is where the two steps intersect.

Look at Cine4:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=851&c=2
When you say the foot intersects with the mid grey that seems to contradict what Sony says about the Cines being hyper-gammas which are constantly variable curves with no well defined turning point. In fact the Sony published curves show no foot?? But by now I think we know we have to work this out for ourselves. No one at SONY is being specific. Good we have you here Bill.

Did you see my "Political and Contraversial: NOT OT" post at the Vegas forum?


mike
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Old February 26th, 2008, 03:08 PM   #191
 
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Mike..

oh yeah
;o)


umm..did I say the foot intersects the mid grey? No, I said mid grey is where the left step wedge and right step wedge intersect.
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Old March 1st, 2008, 04:06 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
Piotr...

ALL the CINE gamma settings are designed for controlled lighting situations with fairly low contrast ranges. The STD gammas are more appropriate for scenes with wide dynamic range. CINE presets add a varying amount of black stretch at the expense of compressing the hi-lites. Not good for outdoor/sunny days with some shade in the scene. You seem to be somewhat resistant to realizing the effect of black stretch.
I hope to do some major testing this weekend (if I get Cineform fixed) and hopefully I will develop an opinion of my own, but what you have said above is new to my ears and Bloom and Jenkins for two do otherwise.
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Old March 2nd, 2008, 06:05 AM   #193
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I had just typed a lengthy response, but lost it as I was trying to post! Arrrggghh!

Anyway, to cut a long story short.
1. Cines 1 and 2 are best for film out (which was their primary purpose) and heavy grading.
2. Cines do not stretch the blacks. They compress the overload the chips are capable of capturing into the recordable signal range.
3. Contrary to what Bill wrote, the cine gammas are your friend in harsh sunny conditions.
4. Cines capture more contrast than STD gammas, but at the expense of tonal range.
5. STD gammas can be made to behave like Cines if you adjust knee point and knee slope, but the camera needs to be able to output a SAW signal so you can see the gamma curve on a waveform monitor.
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Old March 2nd, 2008, 06:15 AM   #194
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Great points, Simon - fully backed up with what I experience. The idea of the "cine" look is not the "punchiness" and contrast at all - hence what we get with the Cine gammas is of a much less tonal range than the STD output. The only Cine gamma that stretches blacks (and blacks only) is Cine4.

This behaviour is inherited from the big CineAlta brothers, and is not quite consistent with what we saw in the prosumer cameras like the V1.

If one is after greater tonal range, especially in the highlights - he must use STD gammas (STD1 is by far the most dynamic and punchy) - but the "abrupt clipping" of colour may be more of a problem. Therefore I'd like to make some educated adjustment to the Knee settings of standard gammas, but for that I need some monitoring equipment - and here is my question: what do you mean by the SAW signal? Pardon my ignorance :)
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Old March 2nd, 2008, 06:21 AM   #195
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The SAW signal is basically just a greyscale designed to represent the gamma curve that is output from the camera. When you adjust the knee, gamma etc you can see the gamma curve on the waveform monitor changing in realtime. In other words the SAW signal is designed so that you can actually see the gamma curve as a real time representation.

It isn't impossible to do without a SAW signal output, but it is more tricky.
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