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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old March 20th, 2008, 09:36 AM   #226
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Thanks Bill nice to know that my eye was happier with -2 now I know why.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 01:40 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael H. Stevens View Post
I suggest gain of -3dB which is the "real" zero.
by that you mean the -3 setting on the EX1 is equivalent to zero in other cameras or you just mean that -3 should be your default setting?
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:11 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Michael Maier View Post
by that you mean the -3 setting on the EX1 is equivalent to zero in other cameras or you just mean that -3 should be your default setting?
If you set the "Black" option in PP to -4 you are settting the black level or master black to Zero IRE. The default "0" in PP's is actually 4 IRE.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:38 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Randy Strome View Post
If you set the "Black" option in PP to -4 you are settting the black level or master black to Zero IRE. The default "0" in PP's is actually 4 IRE.
Oh, I didn't know he was talking about blacks I thought he meant gain as in -3db.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 05:39 PM   #230
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log data

ive been thinking about this, i dont think it has been posted about, but given the picture profile controls available in the EX1, i wonder if it would be possible to create a log-like picture profile so that the information recorded by the camera does a better job of retaining the 14(?)bits initially captured from the CMOS. 8bit log data could be extrapolated much more accurately to 10bit linear data. of course this would require a specific workflow to deal with the LUT required to see the picture correctly, but it could help a lot in maintaining latitude and detail. might take some trial and error to find exactly the right settings, but the camera is so configurable that it certainly seems possible.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Michael Maier View Post
Oh, I didn't know he was talking about blacks I thought he meant gain as in -3db.
Michael,
I should have read who you had quoted more carefully. I only scanned the quote and thought you were commenting on Bill's suggestion of Black at -3 or -4.

In the quote you actually posted Micheal Stevens was making a suggestion as to how the SAW Test may have better been conducted. I do not think he was making any general usage suggestion on gain there. Back up a few posts to read the responses to that suggestion.

Best,
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Old March 20th, 2008, 09:45 PM   #232
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This is all very interesting but what does this mean in practicality? Does it mean that the default gain should be zero and that even thought he menu for crushing black master goes to -99 we should limit it at -6? In bright light with CINE1 and gain at -3 I have needed take it down to -12 on may shots to maximise the bottom of the waveform as first recommended by Randy.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 06:16 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel View Post
ive been thinking about this, i dont think it has been posted about, but given the picture profile controls available in the EX1, i wonder if it would be possible to create a log-like picture profile so that the information recorded by the camera does a better job of retaining the 14(?)bits initially captured from the CMOS. 8bit log data could be extrapolated much more accurately to 10bit linear data. of course this would require a specific workflow to deal with the LUT required to see the picture correctly, but it could help a lot in maintaining latitude and detail. might take some trial and error to find exactly the right settings, but the camera is so configurable that it certainly seems possible.
This sound like a great idea and a great way to use the camera. If anybody could take this idea and run with it we could have something. Maybe Bill Ravens?
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Old March 21st, 2008, 12:59 PM   #234
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I would like to modify something I had said earlier about the Gamma setting in PP's.

I had stated that this setting would be like adjusting a 50 percent middle point on a curve or in levels. I had tried to put this in terms of adjusting gamma in post, or in an image editing program such as photoshop. In those invironments, Gamma pulls at the mid tones, while leaving the black and white points static.

Not so in PP's, adjusting Gamma leaves the black point static, but adjusts the white point. It actually appears to me that "White" would be a more consistant name than Gamma.

This may be quite common in video PP settings, I do not know, but I wanted to clarify so that my earlier comment would not confuse anyone.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 02:08 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Strome View Post
I would like to modify something I had said earlier about the Gamma setting in PP's.

I had stated that this setting would be like adjusting a 50 percent middle point on a curve or in levels. I had tried to put this in terms of adjusting gamma in post, or in an image editing program such as photoshop. In those invironments, Gamma pulls at the mid tones, while leaving the black and white points static.

Not so in PP's, adjusting Gamma leaves the black point static, but adjusts the white point. It actually appears to me that "White" would be a more consistant name than Gamma.

This may be quite common in video PP settings, I do not know, but I wanted to clarify so that my earlier comment would not confuse anyone.
Randy What tests makes you believe the black point is static? I ask because if you look at the gamma curves publish by Sony they show the black and white point moving.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 02:43 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Michael H. Stevens View Post
Randy What tests makes you believe the black point is static? I ask because if you look at the gamma curves publish by Sony they show the black and white point moving.
Hi Michael,

I am looking at the resultant curve live on the waveform on my monitor as I make the change, but please confirm this for yourself by recording the saw pattern to SXS.

I had originally looked at the saw pattern for Cine 1 at a color temp of 3200 and gain at 0 with the only other adjustment being Black pulled to the floor (-4). I then adjusted gamma up and down by about 50 points in either direction. No change to black, only to white. Then, as black was on the floor, I wanted to give it some room to see if it would adjust down, so I raised black off of the floor to 0 (which sets it at 4 IRE). I then repaeted the gammma up gamma down about 50 points in either direction. Same results. Black stays static. Everything stretches from white. After I saw your post, I rechecked by pushing the gamma all the way to plus 99 and negative 99, and at negative 99 with black at 0 (4 IRE) it will lower by 1 IRE (to 3 IRE). At the same time white is moving by 10+ points. I then checked STD1 and the results are very similar with only the smallest motion to black but with largest sweeps to white.

If there is interest, I will be happy to snap some shots later.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 03:29 PM   #237
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How do I record the saw pattern?
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Old March 21st, 2008, 03:37 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Michael H. Stevens View Post
How do I record the saw pattern?
I have only looked at it live, but from Prune's blog, it sounds like he was doing this:

First, get into the hidden menu options by pressing (at the same time) cancel, select (the rotating button) and menu. You will reach the usual menu, plus 3 items.

Select saw pattern and turn it on. Then get out of the menu option and into the pp menu. You can record live to SXS while you make the changes.
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Old March 22nd, 2008, 08:37 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
Along with this, I will also note that my previous BLACK settings seem to be causing noise in the shadows, indicating the shadows are being crushed. With data from the SAW that Randy provided, the min setting for BLACK I now recommend is -3 or -4.
Bill do you have another updated SUF file with your recent settings we could upload. Your previous black settings went down to -8 do all your PPs black levels now go up by 4?

Also I am videoing a wedding on Monday. The church is quite dimly lit, but the aisle shot is likely to be backlit from the main windows at the front of church. I would like to have more detail in the blacks so can brighten them if necessary in post.

I will probably need to use several picture profiles in the church.

1) Aisle bright backlit shot in dim church
2) Stage shot, under a mixture of white stage spots (unfortunately not evenly dispersed lighting)
3) Signing of the register - dimly lit.

Is cine4 better in bringing up more contrasts in the blacks or would std1 with a modified PP be better.

I would like some practical answers please!

Thanks
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Old March 22nd, 2008, 09:52 PM   #240
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Ex1 vs. XL H1

I just went on a shoot for promotional video. The director is a 35mm film purist who was doing the shoot for charity and had to use low end HD (my EX1 and another XL H1). When he asked which should be used for A camera and which should be used for B I said use the XL H1 since it had a wide angle lens...but by the end of the night I feel like my camera had turned into the A camera along the way...thanks to the film curve pp...the closeups on the EX1 were just more impressive...yayy film curve pp...thanks for posting this stuff dudes and dudettes...

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