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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:27 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Kiger View Post
So my question here is this; do Picture Profiles change the data the EX1 records (ie Destructive), leaving some aspects like shadow detail or highlights lost forever or is it just XML data file (non-destructive) that simply changes how it looks.
Using a camera like the EX1 or EX3 is like shooting in JPEG mode. The raw data has already been modified before it hits the data pipe (even when using the SDI output). The footage has already been compressed, and it uses the Picture Profiles as the recipe.

The Red One shoots raw, and their proprietary software is designed to log & process the acquired footage.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 03:08 PM   #497
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One can debate the term "uncompressed" but the HD-SDI out is uncompressed. That does NOT mean it has not been processed. The HD-SDI out is processed by the picture profile but it has not been compressed by the XDCAM codec (when coming live off the head).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
Using a camera like the EX1 or EX3 is like shooting in JPEG mode. The raw data has already been modified before it hits the data pipe (even when using the SDI output). The footage has already been compressed, and it uses the Picture Profiles as the recipe.

The Red One shoots raw, and their proprietary software is designed to log & process the acquired footage.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 05:58 PM   #498
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Red is a long way from RAW too...
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Old September 9th, 2009, 08:37 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver View Post
Yes, the default settings are meant to produce a flat looking image, from here you can apply curves, colour coorections, saturation etc. Not, quite the same as shooting in RAW with a digital camera, but it will do as a starting point.

You might also want to take a look at Alister Chapmans guide to EX curves.

YouTube - XDCAM EX Gamma Curves and Knee, what they do and which ones to use.
Thanks Vincent. I checked out the U tube piece on EX1 Curves. It differentiates between footage shot with the intention of being graded in post and not. Since my workflow involves grading all footage in post it sounded like I would be best served using the camera's Cine 1, 3 or 4 as a way of capturing the maximum amount of image information and leaving myself the greatest number options in post.

Would you agree with this bit of novice logic or advocate shooting at the flat factory defaults?

as always - thanks to everyone for the informative posts

Greg Kiger
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Old September 9th, 2009, 09:12 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
One can debate the term "uncompressed" but the HD-SDI out is uncompressed. That does NOT mean it has not been processed. The HD-SDI out is processed by the picture profile but it has not been compressed by the XDCAM codec (when coming live off the head).
I'm under the impression that the 4:2:2 output means it's compressed. If not, wouldn't it be 4:4:4?
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Old September 9th, 2009, 09:18 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by David C. Williams View Post
Red is a long way from RAW too...
In the context of this chart what does "raw" mean then? I see the Red One is "4k" and not raw.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 06:35 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
In the context of this chart what does "raw" mean then? I see the Red One is "4k" and not raw.
The Red marketing team appropriated the term RAW to help sell the camera. They simply called what comes out of the camera Red RAW in the hope of people associating it with the DSLR RAW format. It actually is a proprietary format using wavelet compression, 12:1-9:1. It doesn't get close to 4K either, after de-bayering, depending on lens and setting, 3.2-2.8K roughly.
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Old September 11th, 2009, 04:54 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by David C. Williams View Post
The Red marketing team appropriated the term RAW to help sell the camera. They simply called what comes out of the camera Red RAW in the hope of people associating it with the DSLR RAW format. It actually is a proprietary format using wavelet compression, 12:1-9:1. It doesn't get close to 4K either, after de-bayering, depending on lens and setting, 3.2-2.8K roughly.
Thanks for the clarification!
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 09:08 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
I'm under the impression that the 4:2:2 output means it's compressed. If not, wouldn't it be 4:4:4?
That's call down-sampling.
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Old December 1st, 2009, 04:32 PM   #505
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Stage-play picture profile

My once a year 2 cam stage-play capture is happening later this week and I'm looking for an appropriate picture profile. Here are some details.

Good tungsten light overall, though center stage is hot. Very colorful costuming/set and plenty of white as well. High contrast stage elements with a black curtain backdrop (both cameras have a 486 IR filter).

The final will be delivered on DVD (and we're considering renting a local cinema for an HD showing). I expect to take advantage of the HD resolution for shot re-framing on the DVD and will try to minimize post color correction.

The profile that looks most pleasing to me so far is STD 4 gamma and detail turned down to -20, frequency +40. Exposure looks perfect when barely touching 100% zebras (although cine gammas tended to blow out at this setting).

Anyone have any tweaks or other suggestions? Is STD 4 my best bet for these conditions?
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Old December 2nd, 2009, 07:32 AM   #506
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I do a lot of contemporary dance videos. horrible contrast range for video, hot spotlights, dark curtains and a lot of action in the dark parts of the stage.
I use 2-3 cameras all set to the following setting which I call CINEflat:

0 dB
if possible -3 if absolutely necessary +6 (but never ever more than that)

Matrix on
select Cinema
Level / Phase / R-G all 0

CC off

Offset White off
preset white 3200 (although on stages with modern lights or rock concerts I shoot with 5600)

Gamma Level 0
Select: Cine4

Black Gamma + 25 !!

It is quite a simple profile, but I am happy with the results.

you can see a not color corrected clip at
(the noise is from the video projection on the background, not from me...)

or a color corrected video:

with the above settings, I have a lot of freedom to tweak in post, because I have a lot of detail in the blacks and a fairly flat picture, that is why on my PPs the setting is called CINEflat...

hope it helps, let me know .
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Old December 3rd, 2009, 12:55 AM   #507
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Hi Oliver,

Your input is very useful! The blacks have been what I've stressed about most and your +25 black gamma looks great, although the potential for introducing noise in the blacks is a concern. I've got one more opportunity for some test shots before the performance and CINEflat is now dialed in for a spin.

Nice job on the videos. LOL at the end of the first one, and the second is also well done with nice CC.

Never considered that modern stage lights could be 5600k. That could be useful information one day. (A couple of HMIs would be nice to have in my kit, too!)

Thanks for taking the time to share your settings.
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Old December 3rd, 2009, 01:24 AM   #508
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I second that, very nice video. What format did you shoot in (1080i or p or 720)
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Old December 3rd, 2009, 10:07 PM   #509
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Hi Oliver,

I really like the details your getting in your videos. I do stage shows too an have just moved over to the EX3 from a Canon XL H1a. For exposure, do you use the zebras and if so what do you have it set at (70% & 100%)? If you don't use zebras how are you setting exposure?

Thanks,
Garrett
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Old December 4th, 2009, 02:57 AM   #510
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Bill:
noise in the blacks is why I always try to use -3 db if possible, often I have to go to 0db and sometimes I am forced to use +6 but I really try to avoid it. I never change during the show so that the noise stays uniform throughout the film. I found that using +25 in the black gamma gives me the steps in the blacks that I need. (Dark scenes with dancers wearing black in front of a black curtain...) If I wish to crush the black later I still can in post, but if I record it crushed it I can't get the definition back without running into serious noise issues.

Vincent:
I shoot everything in 1080, i or p depending on the look I want. Rarely 720 but only when I need slomo.

Garret:
I never use Zebras. They really annoy me, and with stage shows, where sometimes the only bright parts are a very small part of the picture, they don't really help because the "grid" is too wide to see the zebra properly.
What is essential with the EX3 is that I set up my viewfinder correctly. And then I tape the controls shut! When I first started using the EX3 I had problems when I accidentally touched the controls when taking the camera out of the bag and in a stage setting, when the theater is dark, it is easy to miss when they are off.
If possible I use an external monitor Sony LMD 9050 which I calibrate at my studio before. If I can do this depends on when I have to shoot. Monitors are very annoying for the audience if the piece has a lot of dark scenes, because the monitors emit a lot of light. And on that note: I tape off anything that glows (the V-Mount battery pack) or shines, and whenever I move away from the viewfinder, I turn it down to not disturb the audience, who pays to see dance, not to see me work...

As a general suggestion for shooting stage stuff:
Whenever possible, I try to do a "video runthrough" where I spend about an hour with the lighting guy and some stand ins to reprogram the light changes and situations to match the impression on the video to the intended experience for the audience. In other words: so that the video looks like the real show. Which means that very dark scenes might have a lot more light and the very bright spotlights might be a lot darker, but on the video the ratio between bright and dark resembles the impression the audience has during the show. As you all know, the f-stop range of video is nowhere close to the human eye... This is easy to do and allows me to use the same f-stop on all the cameras througout the show.
The only drawback for a video runthrough is that the energy and "spark" of the dancers is different without an audience. If possible I try to do this for a "pre-premiere" or general rehearsal when they invite schools or friends. But still the energy is not the same. So if possible: get some important people in to watch, for example fellow dancers or choreographers.
Another huge advantage of a video run is that I am free to choose where I want to position the cameras.

some more of my videos: ABAKU's videos on Vimeo
not all of them are shot with the EX3, some with the 450 DVCAM
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