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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old January 4th, 2008, 04:36 PM   #1
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mixing sxs cards and Ex1 file size

Can you mix sxs cards - 8mb and 16mb on the Sony EX1 or the Panasonic HVX-200. EX1 35 Mbps vs Panasonic HVX-200 100 Mbps?? What is the difference.

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Old January 4th, 2008, 05:01 PM   #2
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definitely can on the EX1. you can hot swap any size
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Old January 4th, 2008, 05:24 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Jack Davis View Post
Can you mix sxs cards - 8mb and 16mb on the Sony EX1 or the Panasonic HVX-200. EX1 35 Mbps vs Panasonic HVX-200 100 Mbps?? What is the difference.

Thanks
The HVX-200 uses outdated technology, P2, which can not be exchanged with SxS cards. The major difference is the cost per minute, P2 is twice as slow and costs 3 times as much per minute recording time.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 05:25 PM   #4
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Not only can you mix the cards but you can mix recoding formats. I believe that with the 335 and 355 XDCAM, once you start writing a codec to the disc, that's the only one that can be written to that disc.

On the HVX, I did a demo awhile back and shot in several different frame sizes and frame rates. When I went to play back the footage from the camera, I was only able to play back the clips that were recorded in the same format as the camera was currently set to.

For example, if I recorded some 1080 footage and then some 720 footage and flipped the camera into play mode, I could only select the 720 clips for playback. I had to flip the camera back to camera mode, change the recording mode to 1080, flip back to playback and then I could watch the other clips.

That was on the HXV200 - don't know if the Ex1 behaves the same way... but I will soon.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 05:38 PM   #5
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EX-1 will record and play back mixed formats or frame rates on same card without issue. A nice improvment over XDCAMHD!
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Old February 18th, 2008, 09:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Harm Millaard View Post
The HVX-200 uses outdated technology, P2, which can not be exchanged with SxS cards. The major difference is the cost per minute, P2 is twice as slow and costs 3 times as much per minute recording time.
I'm not sure where this information comes from. I recently checked on 16 GB SxS vs P2 and they were virtually equal.

I think overall, most HVX users shoot in PN mode, which consumes 40 Mbps at 720 24PN...almost equal to the 35 Mbps on the EX-1. If you shoot at 1080 24PN, your data rate is 80 Mbps, and in that case, it becomes more of an issue.

I've been on Panasonic's case for over-generalizing the HVX200's capabilities and how it compares to HDV and XDCHD, but rhetoric flies in all directions and Sony's is no more absolutely factual than Panasonic's....(HDcam is 1920x1080, 4:2:2 right?). Obsolescence is relative. If you edit video on a PC, you are almost certainly using a file format that hasn't been "supported" (as in there is no further development) for years...AVI.

I work with HVX200 footage regularly and the duel adapter works fine and while Apple has moved away from the larger card slot to trim down their laptop size, there are several PC's still available that can take a P2 card directly.

Propaganda is propaganda...
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Old February 18th, 2008, 12:56 PM   #7
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Actually my understanding is they are not virtually equal, not even close. I can get 57 minutes of "true" 1080P on a 16GB S&S card, P2 can only do 16 minutes of 1080P (not true 1080p, 1080i with 3:2 pulldown) with a 16GB P2 card. Correct me if I am wrong? Does not seem like propaganda? Let's compare Apples to Apples, the only reason they are shooting in 720PN is because of compromising time and quality, I can guarantee they would be shooting 1080P if they could get almost and hour of recording time on a 16 GB card instead of 16 minutes. The cost per minute is as stated in the previous post, actually they were being kind, it is closer to 4 times as much. Would you rather have 57 minutes of 1080P (S&S) or 40 minutes of 720PN (P2)? How about 16 minutes of psuedo 1080P in 1080i 3:2 pulldown? You stated "I think overall, most HVX users shoot in PN mode, which consumes 40 Mbps at 720 24PN...almost equal to the 35 Mbps on the EX-1. If you shoot at 1080 24PN, your data rate is 80 Mbps, and in that case, it becomes more of an issue." Going down to a recording time of only16 minutes is more than just "an issue". The only thing you could say is the 16GB P2 card costs the same as the 16GB S&S card, as was stated in the post prior to yours, the S&S card records almost 4x the amount of data than the P2, hence the cost per minute being more for the P2. (I wonder how much more time would be sucked up by putting true 1080P on the P2?

Anyway, wanted to set the record straight.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Stewart; February 18th, 2008 at 01:49 PM.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 05:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Michael Stewart View Post
Actually my understanding is they are not virtually equal, not even close. I can get 57 minutes of "true" 1080P on a 16GB S&S card, P2 can only do 16 minutes of 1080P (not true 1080p, 1080i with 3:2 pulldown) with a 16GB P2 card. Correct me if I am wrong?
Actually, you assume that everyone with an HVX200 is shooting a 100 Mb stream.

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Originally Posted by Michael Stewart View Post
Let's compare Apples to Apples, the only reason they are shooting in 720PN is because of compromising time and quality,
Actually, many of them use an HVX as a B cam for a Varicam...which shoots 720p.

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Originally Posted by Michael Stewart View Post
I can guarantee they would be shooting 1080P if they could get almost and hour of recording time on a 16 GB card instead of 16 minutes.
Do you own one of these cameras? Ever shot with one? I know I hate it when Panasonic advocates start knocking HDV/XDCHD when they have little experience if any with the format.


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Originally Posted by Michael Stewart View Post
The cost per minute is as stated in the previous post, actually they were being kind, it is closer to 4 times as much. Would you rather have 57 minutes of 1080P (S&S) or 40 minutes of 720PN (P2)?
How exactly is that 4X?


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Originally Posted by Michael Stewart View Post
How about 16 minutes of psuedo 1080P in 1080i 3:2 pulldown? You stated "I think overall, most HVX users shoot in PN mode, which consumes 40 Mbps at 720 24PN...almost equal to the 35 Mbps on the EX-1. If you shoot at 1080 24PN, your data rate is 80 Mbps, and in that case, it becomes more of an issue." Going down to a recording time of only16 minutes is more than just "an issue".
Well, of course the 1080 mode in PN isn't 100 Mbps, it's 80. I suppose it's an issue for a certain group who need long, contiguous record times, but I've never run into a problem swapping cards on any commercial or industrial shoots...it actually mitigates risk as there is only so much content at risk on any given media...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Stewart View Post
The only thing you could say is the 16GB P2 card costs the same as the 16GB S&S card, as was stated in the post prior to yours,
Really? In this thread? I don't see it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Stewart View Post
the S&S card records almost 4x the amount of data than the P2, hence the cost per minute being more for the P2.
Anyway, wanted to set the record straight.
Indeed. Be careful about mixing your metaphors however. A 16 GB vessel holds 16 GB...nothing holds 4x more "data" here. The remarks I responded to had to do with the relative cost of each media type...and Gig for Gig...they're pretty close. If you don't want to record a 135 Mb file, or a 100 Mb file, you'd rather record a 35 Mbit file...great! That has little to do with the cost per Gig or the obsolescence of any specific media type.

...and the data rates you are comparing to come up with your numbers simply indicate the increased compression in the EX-1. More res/less data. MPEG does have some efficiencies, but it depends on who you talk to as to what the increase in efficiency over an equivalent I-frame format actually is...

I'm not saying that it's a bad camera, I've used HDV and XDCHD myself, Even for keying. I just think the HVX zealots who were waving the flag and shouting about how bad MPEG based acquisition was a couple years ago aren't any different from the counter-zealots attacking them now...

I find very few people with true experience using all these formats who have these intense opinions...pick the camera that you think is best for you, but just because a particular device doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's useless for everyone else...relax.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 05:54 PM   #9
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Thanks for pointing out my mis-statements, a quick response on my behalf, my apologies. I do own the EX1 and have some local friends who shoot with the HVX200.

The point I was making is in your statement " I'm not sure where this information comes from (price per minute was the context). I recently checked on 16 GB SxS vs P2 and they were virtually equal."

Virtually equal how? the only equal I could see was the price tag of each one. When both are shot in 1080P (psuedo on HXV200), the Sony holds 57 minutes, while the HVX holds 16 minutes, hence "almost 4x the amount (data being the wrong term I used initially) of record time. I was not assuming everyone was shooting 100mbps, only that you were comparing 720pn record times to 1080P record times (my statement of apples to apples). So your point about them (S&S and P2) being equal was? record time? Cost? I am confused. And if it is gig for gig, what difference does that make, are we not more concerned with quality than bitrate, seeing as it is two different compression schemes? I use Cineform so editing degradation is not an issue.

Mike
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Old February 18th, 2008, 06:22 PM   #10
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My point is here:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/1...ory_Cards.html

and here:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...arch&Q=*&bhs=t

16 GB...24 dollars difference.

What I'm saying is that everyone is trying to compare cost-effectiveness on two formats that are very hard to compare. You can make the case for recording 1/3 the data at twice the frame size as a better value (and you will create debate, I can assure you), but the media isn't any more expensive for strict data storage...

you can also use some of the newer cameras and go to AVC-Intra and record 50 Mbps...P2 is not the problem is what I'm saying. There isn't a 32 GB SxS card available yet so it will be tough to compare that...but there should be a 32 GB SxS card by the time panasonic releases the 64 GB P2...and I'm sure all the smaller cards will drop in price. SxS is not Compact Flash. Someone besides Sony makes it, sure, but it's only slightly less proprietary than P2...and over the years, Sony hasn't proven themselves very interested in reducing prices. A Broadcast Betacam SP deck wasn't much cheaper at the end of its product cycle than it was when it was introduced.

I'm a CineForm user myself...and I'm sure your EX-1 footage will be great, I'm just saying that all these various cameras/media/and recording formats need to be compared separately to make meaningful comparisons.

Not everyone shares the mindset that further compressing video to fit more into a given piece of media is a prime factor in their work...for many, a higher data rate is key as the shots aren't very long...have any idea how much getty stock is shot on HVX200s? Quite a bit, I've been involved in shooting some of it.

I guess ultimately, it would just be nice if someone on one of these boards took the time to examine the shades of gray in all these comparisons as the comments that make everything look black and white just aren't defensible...and more importantly on these boards...they're seldom truly helpful.

that's all. i'm done.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 11:17 PM   #11
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Points taken, no hard feelings, I hope.

Mike
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:32 PM   #12
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None at all.

When everybody is right (as the choices in this case are SO dependent on each user's specific needs), the fact that there is nobody who is necessarily wrong is annoying.

It's better than the opposite though I suppose...

:-)
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