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Old February 13th, 2008, 09:01 AM   #1
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Drop Frame Time Code issues - Mac

I'm finding Drop Frame Time Code issues on the Mac although they seem to be problems in Quicktime and/or Final Cut Pro unless they're induced by the Sony Xfer software.

When using Time of Day Code (which by nature is Drop Frame) or Preset with Drop Frame setting, the imported time code ends up being flagged as Non Drop and the numbers appear to be off.

Once converted to MOV with Sony Xfer software open a clip in Quicktime and check using lower left Time Code Display pull down.
Note it's flagged as Non Drop.
Check numbers in FCP and note they are flagged as Non Drop.
Note that there are gaps of a few frames between clips where there should be non (record run).
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Old February 13th, 2008, 01:56 PM   #2
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More details on the issue

I'm shooting 1080p30 Clock (Time Of Day)

On Page 53 of EX1 manual
HQ1080/30P - Fixed to DF in Clock mode
HQ1080/60i - Fixed to DF in Clock mode
also
HQ720/60P (double count) - Fixed to DF in Clock mode
HQ720/30P - Fixed to DF in Clock mode

So in HQ 30p, 60i, 60p Clock mode (Time Of Day) is FIXED to Drop Frame. User can't change this.

I'm shooting 1080p30 so Clock mode (Time of Day) SHOULD be Drop Frame. That's not what Quicktime or Final Cut Pro 6.0.2 is seeing. Both show the "flag" set to Non Drop Frame.

Interestingly if I jog through Quicktime passed a minute mark the frames ARE DROPPED :29, :02 but Quicktime sees it as NDF.

Anybody seeing this? Anybody using the above frame rates with Clock and NOT seeing this?
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Old February 13th, 2008, 02:06 PM   #3
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See attached screen shot from Quicktime 7.3.1. In lower left it is Clock time shot at 1080p30 and should be DF but Quicktime shows it as NDF.
Attached Thumbnails
Drop Frame Time Code issues - Mac-ndffull.jpg  
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Old February 14th, 2008, 07:22 AM   #4
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No comment on this at all?

No one using DF on EX1 and a Mac?
Anybody seeing this on Windows too?

Unless for some bizarre reason this is a camera issue (camera software/firmware), it would be either an XDCAM Xfer issue or, more likely, a Quicktime/FCP issue in which MANY of you using DF should be seeing this.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 09:15 AM   #5
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This is screen grab from FCP 6.0.2.
Note in upper right it shows as Non Drop Frame.
Note in time code display in bottom center of image the time code number of 20:11:00:01, a number that should NOT exist with Drop Frame Time Code.

BTW in Quicktime the above number does go from 20:10:59:29 to 20:11:00:02 as it should but Quicktime (as I noted previously) show the NDF Flag.

What I'm seeing:
Quicktime shows correct DF numbers but flags as NDF
FCP shows NDF numbers and flags as NDF
Shooting in 1080p30 should be DF.
Attached Thumbnails
Drop Frame Time Code issues - Mac-ndffcp.jpg  
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Old February 14th, 2008, 11:43 AM   #6
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DF Time Code Issues - Mac

Hi Craig,

I'm a newbie to this forum and a very recent owner of the EX-1.

Yes, I have noticed the switch to NDF even though I had the camera set for DF.
I thought I just made a mistake on the initial setting as I am both new to FCP and the EX-1.

I normally use Avid Media Composer w/ my Sony DSR450WS and I always set everything DF.

This is very puzzling.

Jac
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Old February 15th, 2008, 11:19 AM   #7
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I called Sony Professional today and they confirmed the Time Code issue. They said Sony Japan is working on the fix although they can't confirm whether it'll be firmware, Clip Browser, Transfer tool update or a new piece of software. The fix might be available the end of this month or maybe next month. They did mention that they do NOT know whether Vegas or Premiere Pro users are seeing the issue but the hunch was they are not. They aren't sure yet whether Avid users are seeing the issue.

I guess I'm one of the few doing windows dubs with Drop Frame time code source here.

Folks PLEASE do check for this issue and post whether or not you're seeing this. If so contact Sony Professional since, apparently, they aren't sure of the source of the issue (Camera vs ClipBrowser vs MacTransfer Tool).
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Old February 15th, 2008, 11:39 PM   #8
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This is timely. I'm not a Mac guy so bear with me. We have a client who has just wrapped an EX1 shoot (136GB of video) and switched the camera into Time Of Day and he's having little to no joy getting the footage into FCP. Shooting 50Hz so not a DF/NDF TC issue.

So it would seem this is very real problem.
Now my next problem is I'm pretty certain I can get the footage into Vegas Pro 8 no problem. How do I get it out of Vegas so he can get it into FCP?
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Old February 16th, 2008, 09:24 AM   #9
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Bob, as you allude to, all HQ 25p, 50p, 50i shooting is fixed to "non drop frame." The same can be said of HQ 24p shooting . . . yet I believe some have reported ingest issues in 24p were they actually get an time code related error message.

There certainly can be other issues that can hamper ingest. The only way to know is provide more info than "no joy."

Can you provide your client's system set up (PPC vs Intel Mac and OS version), step by step workflow and EXACTLY what they are seeing at what point to indicate the failure.

BTW I've also seen/had some spanned clip issues which, after some hindsight, may be time code related too. Imagine the problem the software might have in joining spanned clips if the time code in the metadata isn't matching.

Bob, do spill the details even if it means starting another thread . . . maybe call it Mac ingest issues. This way we can discern and point the issues and all there variations to Sony.

Based on my phone call it does seem Sony needs some help sorting this out. BTW the tech I spoke to said flat out that at this point Sony recommends AGAINST using Clock time code so your issue may very well be related and it may well NOT be Mac only.
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Old February 16th, 2008, 04:38 PM   #10
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Thanks Craig.

It'll be tomorrow before I can see first hand what is happening with FCP.
In the interim I'll try shooting in Clock mode on my camera and see if the clip browser / Vegas has any issues.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 08:06 PM   #11
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Tried shooting 50i HQ with Clock TC and transfered using clip browser to MXF. Loaded clip into Vegas 8, no problem at all. TC on T/L shows as when the clip was shot 20:00 etc.

Today we tried the clip transfer on a Intel Mac and it's a no show. We get an error message along the line of 'A time code translator could not be found', both SQ and HQ clips same problem. Playing out the SQ clips from the camera and trying to capture via firewire into FCP as HDV also fails after a few seconds of capturing.

Problem has been reported to Sony Australia.

If all else fails I could convert the footage through Vegas 8 to QT so we're not entirely dead in the water.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 08:26 PM   #12
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Bob with 50iHQ Clock you'd be recording NDF (since there's no DF in PAL).

Were the clips you tried on the Mac also 50iHQ and 50iSP?

It's odd that you would get an error since PAL frame rates must be NDF.

I've heard that people shooting HQ24p (NTSC) are getting the same error you mention. That would be fixed to NDF so that's an interesting correlate since this is NOT a case of DF being flagged as NDF.

I've been using 1080p30 both Clock and Preset (set to DF). I can import my clips with Sony Transfer tool but the DF shots are being flagged as NDF.

_________
Your issue with PAL frame rate and the error has me intrigued since this wouldn't be a DF/NDF flag issue. If your experience is universally true then no one would be able to use EX PAL with FCP . . . and we KNOW that's NOT the case. There are many PAL EX1 FCP users here.

Please post in DETAIL what your source (HQ/SP) frame rate and TC settings were when you tried to ingest into FCP and got the error message. It doesn't make sense that that would happen with PAL source.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 10:53 PM   #13
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You are correct. No problems with PAL 50i HQ or SP with preset TC.
We and the client tested this before the shoot.

As this was a multicam shoot, 3 x EX1s, 1x V1P, the TC on the EX1s was changed to Clock to make syncing easier. When trying to transfer the clips recorded with Clock we're getting the problem of "A Timecode translator could not be found" with both the HQ and SP 50i clips. The first few clips on a card with preset TC transfer just fine.

Like you, this makes no sense to me either. All that should change switching to Clock is how the timecode is derived and yet....

This has been tried on two Macs down here, same problem.
It sure wouldn't hurt if someone else could try this as well. It'd only take a few minutes to switch a EX1 into 50Hz and Clock and try loading the clips.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 03:42 AM   #14
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Update - things you don't get told.

Tried getting one of the clips from the actual shoot into Vegas this PM. What I quickly discovered was that these are split clips. What I wasn't able to test back on a Mac was if it's a problem only with split clips or not.
If I can tomorrow I'll try getting a clip that isn't split and with Clock TC into FCP.

On the PC / Vegas side of things split clips can cause issues that you need to handle via the clip browser, possibly the clips need to be joined prior to taking them into FCP.
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Old February 21st, 2008, 10:19 AM   #15
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Any update Bob?
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