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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old February 19th, 2008, 08:10 AM   #31
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Talk about flogging a dead horse!

1) In 32bit FP Vegas does, as part of the process, what is the same as a StudioRGB to ComputerRGB conversion. So of course the scopes will read wider and of course the colours will lift. The scopes may even indicate more serious clipping however you're now in a 32bit FP pipeline and nothing actually gets lost if you apply the reverse transform on the output i.e. ComputerRGB to StudioRGB. The has been documented by Glenn months ago.

2) Of course converting from StudioRGB to ComputerRGB will do what you're seeing. If it didn't, THEN something would be wrong.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 09:12 AM   #32
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The EX1 might push the envelope a bit harder than the HDV cameras so the issue seems a bit more apparent but that's about all.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 09:32 AM   #33
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With the V1E and Vegas 7 (i.e. before the greater camera latitude, and the 32bit FP video processing), everything seemed so straightforward to me!
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #34
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Other than color-space conversion errors -- there's no problem with RGB if your YUV video is limited to 235. With some cameras it is. With the EX1 it isn't.
I haven't used a camera that doesn't record superwhites (factory settings). Most cameras record superwhites. (In my terminology, superwhites are values where Y' is greater than 235.)

Quote:
Thus, if you use Vegas, you need to do whatever it is you need to do to prevent this.
The issue is the same in ALL editing programs. Superwhites are illegal.

[quote]Something seems odd about your use of the word "volume." We know YUV is 16-235 with option to go up to 254. You say Studio RGB has LESS volume. You also say Computer RGB has even less "volume" than Studio RGB -- yet it has a range of 0 to 255.[quote]
In studio RGB, legal values fall in the range of 16-235. The values from 0-15 and 236-255 can hold illegal values. So that's why the volume is bigger than computer RGB (legal values go in the range of 0-255; no room for illegal values).

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Working with FP is potentially MUCH MUCH slower option. Using it as a solution to the lack of YUV seems a slow way to go.
Not if you use GPU acceleration. (Which Vegas doesn't do.) A lot of the high-end systems use GPU acceleration... all the Discreet/Autodesk products, Mistika, etc.

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By the way -- I'd love to see a statement from Adobe that they have switched the internals to YUV. I doubt it.
It's in the help somewhere. My demo expired so I can't get at it.

In any case, this stuff doesn't make a difference.
Passing 32-bit float, 8-bit Y'CbCr, or 8-bit (studio) R'G'B' pretty much looks the same in real-world scenarios. It's not like you can view a broadcast master on a broadcast monitor and tell that a Media 100 system was used instead of _____.
(*Granted, it's possible to create situations where you can see a difference with a good monitor and specifically-designed noiseless computer-generated gradients.)

Last edited by Glenn Chan; February 19th, 2008 at 12:50 PM.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:20 PM   #35
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I've changed my work-flow now that I realize you can work in 8-bit and just go to 32-bit before render, and this is what I now do. Tell me if there is any disadvantage in this over being 32-bit all the time.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:29 PM   #36
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Ok,this studio to computer RGB,using vegas,how do i do it ?
Thanks,Paul.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 05:18 PM   #37
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Studio to Computer RGB is available from the FX tab in a few FX group locations (Levels, Color Corection, and Secondary Color Correction).

Just drag your chosen Studio to Computer RGB FX onto a given clip or a group of selected clips in the timeline.

Each of the Studio to Computer RGB FX offer a different grouping of controls with which you can modify the stock FX. This will allow you to avoid clipping if any occurs and refine your picture. You will probably want to keep your scopes visible and set them to update automatically to monitor the results of the FX over the duration of your clip(s).

I hope this is helpful.

As boring as this thread has been for some, it has opened up the software for me, and I now see a workable start to finish workflow with this new cam/software combo. Thanks to all!
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Old February 19th, 2008, 09:00 PM   #38
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Something is confusing me here, as I've been using vegas for ages now and have a simple understanding of the studio to computer and vice versa. My understanding is this:

> if your delivering video for computer viewing then you use the 'studio to computer' levels

>if your delivering video for broadcast/tv then you apply the 'computer to studio' levels

if your in studio rgb then your picture may seem washed out because you should be viewing via an external monitor where you will be seeing true values, where as if your working in computer rgb then it will look vivid on your computer but incorrect on an external monitor.

Please someone clarify this for me, i thought that was the standard principle.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 09:09 PM   #39
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The problem I see with Studio RGB and why I stick with computer RGB is that more and more people are watching their TV on computers and LCD TVs. I monitor now by having Vegas hooked by HDMI to a 42" 1080p LCD TV and that is my standard now and for me Studio RGB gives very poor results when applied to the "raw" EX1 footage which looks fantastic on LCD TVs. I think Studio RGB is or should be dead!
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Old February 19th, 2008, 09:27 PM   #40
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For something that is clearly very important, especially for people who are outputting to broadcasters, why is the issue of colour space, rgb vs yuv etc so unclear in vegas? I mean, i may be wrong but im sure other nle users have clear instructions for what they aim to do, yet im now unsure AGAIN what i should be using and when.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 10:53 PM   #41
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i thought that was the standard principle.
In 32-bit there isn't really a simple logic to what codecs do what.

The simpler approach is to consult the table in my article (or a similar table if they exist).

1- Pick a working color space (studio or computer RGB). Suppose you pick studio RGB.

2- Convert all your sources to that working color space. So any computer RGB sources (e.g. still images) need to be converted to studio RGB... on those clips, apply the "computer RGB to studio RGB" color corrector preset.

3- When you make your deliverable, check what color space that codec expects. Suppose you are rendering to Windows Media (which expects computer RGB).
Nest your .veg into a new project, apply a studio to computer RGB conversion to that, and render that out.

Quote:
rgb vs yuv etc so unclear in vegas?
I don't know. I think it could be better... having to manually convert color spaces is not something you have to do in other NLEs.
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Old February 20th, 2008, 01:41 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Glenn Chan View Post
I haven't used a camera that doesn't record superwhites (factory settings). Most cameras record superwhites. (In my terminology, superwhites are values where Y' is greater than 235.)

The issue is the same in ALL editing programs. Superwhites are illegal.

Not if you use GPU acceleration. (Which Vegas doesn't do.) A lot of the high-end systems use GPU acceleration... all the Discreet/Autodesk products, Mistika, etc.
1) I have an HD camcorder that limits output to 100IRE.

2) Superwhites are not illegal in all editing programs. With FCP you simply check the box if you want Superwhite handling.

3) None of the production systems you mentioned are EDITING systems -- they are primarily compositing systems that usually require very specific graphics cards. The NLEs with the largest installed base do NOT use GPUs so it's a stretch to claim that GPUs explain "volumes." The "volumes" you talk about must exist in the data values themselves -- not in a FP unit. I think you are confusing the range of bit-values in data with the computation of colorspace during conversions.

Bottom-line, Vegas users must do what they need to do. But now all of us know we must not ignore these issues. For examples, do folks always check Superwhites in FCP?
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Old February 20th, 2008, 03:24 AM   #43
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The problem here is that there are different RGB standards/types and that the allowed range of values is not what sets them apart, it is also what the Red Green and Blue colors are.

Wikipedia (what else?) has a nice graph with different RGB volumes. AFAIK sRGB is roughly the same as SMPTE 601 and used for consumer products like TV's. Adobe RGB and Apple RGB are computer RGB types.

Also you may what to take a look at this paper: . A Review of RGB color spaces...from xyY to R'G'B'. Yes it is a PDF and yes, it will make you feel like doing homework.

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Old February 20th, 2008, 04:37 AM   #44
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Problem with vegas pro 8

Ok i'm having a bit of a problem with Vegas pro 8.
I shot a lot of footage at the weekend,around 8hrs,all1080/50i,all in SQ,except 1 hr of HQ,115gb in total.
I need to compress it down,client wants WMV,now even when i put a small amount in the timeline,even just 30 mins,vegas won't render the complete clip,a couple of mins is fine,but any more than that,no,computer just keeps hanging,the green process bar will stop at say 52% but the time remaining keeps going down and the time elapsed keeps going up,then when time remaining is at zero,time elapsed jut keeps going.
All my footage is on an exteral hard-drive,seagate freeagent pro,500gb,running via esata,i've never had any problems with vegas until i started using this drive,but i've also never tried render this much footage on one go before.
Could it be anything to do with the drivers i installed for the esata card ?

I'm thinking of reinstalling vegas to se if that helps.
Has anyone out there removed everything from their pc that isn't needed for editing,ie,antivirus,web-browser and associated web programs and anything else i can think of ? Does this make a difference to the pc ?

Thanks,Paul.
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Old February 20th, 2008, 07:52 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael H. Stevens View Post
I've changed my work-flow now that I realize you can work in 8-bit and just go to 32-bit before render, and this is what I now do. Tell me if there is any disadvantage in this over being 32-bit all the time.
Hi Michael,

What is your intended viewing device for your project? If you are producing for computer viewing (and are talking about studio 8 bit in your question) then that should be fine, but the downside is that you will have the colorspace change which will entirely change the look of your video at the end, so you will need to edit with "incorrect" colors until you make the final change.

Also, if you are going for web output, the 32 bit final conversion will produce a huge file in comparison to a 8 bit Computer RGB start point.
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