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Old February 20th, 2008, 04:14 PM   #61
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Bill:

In your color restrictions, 16-235, are you not talking old-fashioned CRTs? Are not modern LCD TVs the same technology as computer monitors? Is that not why my rendered files played on a HD LCD TV from a Blu-ray player look the same as my Vegas preview windows? OR am I in Studio RGB when I think I am in Computer RGB?

Because this has become confusing, not just to me but a lot of us, is why I asked to skip the theory and set out a Vegas work-flow for the EX1. That's what Randy asked for initially and no one has done that. Someone who knows he is right please list the next few steps you take after you have the mxf files out of Clip-Browser and on the time-line and what you do when it is time to render. My images are so good I can't believe I'm doing it wrong but opinion is I am. For simplicity lets forget still and generated media, and stick with just the camera files.
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Old February 20th, 2008, 09:18 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alexander View Post
Think i'm going to boot edius up until my new mac arrives.
Don't forget to get the 4.6 update that directly supports the EX1.

I suspect the reason FCP users don't worry so much is that when Randy Ubillos designed the first generation of what became FCP, he already had years of experience as the person who wrote Premiere. Premiere was, like Avid, based upon RGB. He, like many of us, saw how folks liked Media 100.

Media 100 used YUV and was based on the QT SDK. Knowing that some folks need to output to film recorders -- he included an RGB OPTION in FCP.

In fairness to Sony -- over time users of Apple software have run into nasty issues with 10-bit operation and with unwanted gamma shifts. Why for example does AIC sometimes look lighter than HDV?

Bottom-line, it's often hard to learn how ANY NLE works and how to solve problems.
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Old February 21st, 2008, 12:04 AM   #63
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Pehaps this will help

Maybe this is a bit late. Anyway I figure a picture is worth a 1,000 words so here goes. Images are from my EX1, around 1 stop overexposed white paper, masked to extract only one section.

These are from the Vegas 8 scopes, set to Computer RGB. Note, that setting only changes the scaling.

Image 1) Project 8 bit.
Image 2) Project 32 bits, gamma 2.22
Image 3) Project 32 bit with Computer to Studio Levels FX in preview window
Image 4) project 8 bit, Studio to Computer Levels FX applied to clip, Computer to Studio FX applied to Preview.

Hopefully what you can see from 1,2 &3 is that switching to 32bit causes the scopes to indicate that clipping is occuring. Adding the Computer RGB to Studio RGB FX to the preview window gets you back to where you should be on the scopes and in fact nothing gets harmed.

Image 4 shows that attempting the same in 8 bit will bring you possibly unstuck, you can cause real digital clipping in the pipeline.
Attached Thumbnails
Vegas Pro 8 Workflow-1.jpg   Vegas Pro 8 Workflow-2.jpg  

Vegas Pro 8 Workflow-3.jpg   Vegas Pro 8 Workflow-4.jpg  

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Old February 21st, 2008, 07:37 AM   #64
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Bob, this is all very nice... I can play with Vegas levels, RGB conversions, switching 8/32bit, etc. and achieve similar results (BTW it's a question of indiviual taste which is better: a slight clipping here and there, or broader latitude).

The main, simple question as asked by Michael somewhere else (can't keep track of those many threads any more) remains unanswered, though:

- just what is the best workflow for EX1's mxf in Vegas Pro 8?

Therefore, I'm sticking to what I was able to gather from the many interpretations and opinions, but mainly my own experience - i.e.:

- stay in 8bit as long as I don't heavily edit (composit, and such)
- avoid RGB space conversions
- make sure my final render is in proper video format (for HD, "Unspecified" is OK)
- use the preview window for monitoring cuts and alike
- use the secondary display with Studio RGB filter to assess the colours.

Sticking to this procedure, I'm back to the confidence level I had with HDV/Vegas 7. And it suits me for now with my EX1, as well - the BD's I'm burning are simply beautiful!
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Old February 21st, 2008, 08:17 AM   #65
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For output intended for computer monitor, 3 scenarios are workable depending on desired speed of editing:

1. Open in 8 bit (which will be studio RGB without any action), convert to Computer RGB and tweak levels to avoid clipping. Render as is.

2. Open in 8 bit (which will be studio RGB without any action), edit without conversion, convert to 32 bit prior to render and tweak levels to avoid clipping.

3. Work in 32 bit end to end.

All produce gorgeous video.
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Old February 21st, 2008, 01:33 PM   #66
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Quote:
Therefore, I'm sticking to what I was able to gather from the many interpretations and opinions, but mainly my own experience - i.e.:

- stay in 8bit as long as I don't heavily edit (composit, and such)
- avoid RGB space conversions
- make sure my final render is in proper video format (for HD, "Unspecified" is OK)
- use the preview window for monitoring cuts and alike
- use the secondary display with Studio RGB filter to assess the colours.
Yep that will work. It is appropriate for 8bit (but not for 32-bit Vegas project), EX1 footage (MXF, not cineform), and rendering to MPEG2. Change the variables and it may or may not be appropriate anymore.

2- If you have fades to black, you should insert a solid color generator of 16 16 16 RGB underneath.

3- If you want more highlight detail, you can map superwhites into legal range with the Levels filter. I can't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head.
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Old February 22nd, 2008, 09:41 PM   #67
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here's a question i can't seem to figure out.

i have footage that i transferred from my ex1 into final cut pro on my mac. my friend wants to take a crack at editing the footage in vegas 8 but the files won't play for him. any suggestions?

thanks,
ag
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Old February 23rd, 2008, 01:12 PM   #68
 
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I was beginning to think I've been making a mountain out of a molehill. Isn't it reasonable to expect a rendered video file to maintain the color balance as set before the render?

So, exactly what workflow will do this? It's pretty clear Vegas8 won't.

Well, I'm not here to flog this horse without offering a possible solution. I have noticed in all the trial runs I've been making, the Cineform Intermediate codec is consistent, repeatable and doesn't distort any of the color mapping. So, conclusion 1...use cineform intermediate for mastering.

OK, how to make MPEG2 files for DVD production: I have a copy of Cinecraft Encoder Basic. Dropping the CFHD.avi file into CCE results in a clean mpeg2 file that stands up to examination of the colors, and duplicates the source file colors quite well.
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Old February 23rd, 2008, 07:51 PM   #69
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I can't help but feel we are all missing something as i really can't believe that sony vegas would have such serious flaws, i mean its an NLE that claims to stand up to the best out there and many acclaimed people in the industry have given it the thumbs up, do you mean the likes of Douglas Spotted Eagle and co have missed such a fatal flaw?.

I've been using vegas for years and have always noticed my colours would never be consistent when i render out but i guess its something i got used to. Imagine, a program i have been defending does'nt even have acurate scopes, this is not acceptable. Surely theres something wrong here, i'm going to point sony towards this thread to try and get some answers because im dissapointed.
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Old February 23rd, 2008, 09:39 PM   #70
 
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Daniel...

I can't speak for DSE, and he's always been someone in whom I have a lot of respect. Yet, he's been curiously absent from this discussion.

OK, I think I've been making progress on this topic. Jon Fairhurst has suggested some color corrections to convert from REC 709 to REC 601 and back. While his coefficients haven't worked for me, I think this is the right track. Vegas 8b has all the appearances of having been rushed out the door before its time. It's still a good app IF the engineers at SCS realize that there's some things they need to fix RIGHT NOW. The complexity is too much for the casual user, myself included and I'm hardly a casual user, and they need to automate a lot of it. And it CAN be automated.

IMHO, Glenn Chan has been working prettty hard to get things straight, but, he works for VASST, who's also on the Sony feed bag. None of us have access to harware scopes to figure this all out, like Glenn does. Still, I think their intent is...ummmm.....good, altho' I'm not so sure about the Sony machine. I'm willing to wait for Sony to prove they still have our interests at heart. In the meantime, I'm using Canopus Edius and have been reasonably happy with the output. They're just not as evolved as Vegas...;o(

Many years ago I tried a MacIntosh....what a disaster. I really hate to think of reinvesting everything in FCP. Last resort, worst case scenario, AFAIK.

Oh well, we can hope.

Last edited by Bill Ravens; February 23rd, 2008 at 11:02 PM.
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Old February 24th, 2008, 11:08 PM   #71
 
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A- Glenn Chan does not "work for VASST." Glenn and I did a color correction DVD together, and it is considered a staple in training for Vegas. He is a presenter on one out of roughly 168 DVDs we offer.

B-VASST isn't at all on the "Sony Feedbag." We create products related to training, including MASSIVE numbers of product for Final Cut Pro, Canon camcorders, Lighting, Audio, Web Compression, Avid, Adobe, Editing/Production, and yes...Sony Vegas and some of the Sony camcorders. We do not receive one thin penny from Sony for our training related to either Vegas or Sony Broadcast camcorders. The implication we are "on the Sony feedbag is a bit bothersome.

C-I'm absent from this thread because believe it or not, I can't find time to read every thread in every forum that mentions the EX1 (which we own 4 of) and/or Sony Vegas software. I try...but can't see them all, not with all the fora out there to be watched. Somewhere in the day, production and revenue takes priority over forums.

Glenn has no financial motivation whatsoever to bring these details to light or to research the subject (outside of his education) so far as I'm aware.
Frankly, I know the workarounds (when they're necessary), some of them are outlined in my Vegas Pro 8 book (for which I also do not receive any compensation from Sony, they have their own book, competitive to mine, written by someone who does not use Sony Vegas, you've never once seen that author post in any Vegas forum, and likely never will).
Glenn is right, of course...DVDs store data as YCbCr. Values for broadcast are different than for DVD, and the codecs behave differently. The only "mistake" I feel Sony have made, is that the scopes currently don't reflect everything that is happening in every mode. I wish it did.

Either way... Sorry my "absence" in this discussion tweaks anyone, but it does seem Glenn has this well in hand.
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Last edited by Douglas Spotted Eagle; February 25th, 2008 at 12:21 AM. Reason: typo
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Old February 25th, 2008, 01:54 AM   #72
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Maybe this will help.
Recorded Multiformat bars in the EX1, got those into Vegas 8, set project to 32bit 2.22 gamma, rendered out to 50i HDV and bought m2t file back into the same project. The output matches the source, what more can one ask for apart from the scopes being off but that's easily fixed anyway. The attatched screen shots were taken with Vegas switched back to 8 bit. Even in 32 bit both files read the same on the scopes.
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Vegas Pro 8 Workflow-source.jpg   Vegas Pro 8 Workflow-output.jpg  

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Old February 25th, 2008, 02:03 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
In the meantime, I'm using Canopus Edius and have been reasonably happy with the output. They're just not as evolved as Vegas...;o(

Many years ago I tried a MacIntosh....what a disaster. I really hate to think of reinvesting everything in FCP. Last resort, worst case scenario, AFAIK.
An interesting view given IMHO both EDIUS and FCP are far more "evolved" than Vegas: EDL import for batch recapture (impossible with Vegas), dual monitors (so you can actually trim your source clips), professional appearing GUI (you actually have a full set of VTR buttons for both monitors and true toolbars), real 3-point editing (not a crude drag to cursor), realtime video filters, standard high-quality REALTIME lossless codecs (no need to buy CineForm), built from Day 1 as a video editor (no need to deal with audio functions -- like metronome, busses, burn CD -- items many video editors have zero experience with or need of), and in the case of FCP, a full complement of supporting programs include in the box.

To be fair, Vegas offers: built-in 5.1 mixing which I love and its support of Sony camcorders is great. For some, the ability to do audio editing and mixing with the same tool is a virtue, not a vice. And, the neat way of creating transitions is unmatched -- especially for those of us that often drag-and-drop edit.

Edius is used in broadcast around the world (because of GV) and this year's Best Pix was edited on FCP. Don't like these two -- go with Media Composer which remains the broadcast and film editor of choice around the world.
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Old February 25th, 2008, 08:43 AM   #74
 
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Steve...

my comment about the maturity of the software was aimed at Edius, alone, not FCP. It's not FCP I have a negative opinion for, it's Macintosh. But, that's a personal thing. Some people swear by Pennzoil, some people swear by Mobil1. It's kinda a religious sort of thing. After having used edius for a few days, I must say that I really like working in the YUV space. The display monitor is much better than Vegas', and the real time mxf and m2t playback beats Vegas to death. The edius scopes actually have an RGB/IRE/YUV eyedropper that's just terrific! I really feel the lack of that in Vegas.

Just MHO.
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Old February 25th, 2008, 12:15 PM   #75
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-As far as the original poster's problem goes, I don't have any information to add that isn't in the article(s) on my website or already in this thread. If the information is confusing or hard to follow, then that is my fault. My intention is to explain how Vegas works (especially since some of the behaviours may be unintuitive) and how to get desired results in Vegas.
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