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Old May 22nd, 2008, 10:39 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Ryan,

Good to see you here again :)

Tell me please one thing: does the 489 filter model create the green cast near the corners/edges due to the IR angle of incidence like the 486, or is this effect weaker, or stronger?
Piotr,

I have been out travelling on business so I haven't had the chance to participate in the forums like I had hoped. But I'm back!

The 489 should create less green cast that is possible (remotely so) than the 486 at certain angles of incidence from light sources. The 486 is still a better application due to its efficiency when not directly next to a sensor. It seems in your application that it may make a difference but most users do not report these effects.

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Old May 22nd, 2008, 10:42 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stevens View Post
OK: This is my set-up with ND before and aft. Starting from the CDC I have:-

1. Internal ND
2. Camera Lens
3. 486
4. ND in Matte Box
5. Graduated Filter.

Is my 486 the right choice?
You are probably OK. If you don't expereince any green casts or other image anomoly then you are likely not to in the future. It all depends on the angle of light entering your lens. In this case, it seems to be working fine. If you can, I recommend you move the 486 to the front of the lens. If not, then don't sweat it if the results are good.

Its like my car, the manufacturer recommends I put premium fuel in it. I put regular and it runs fine. Should I put premium fuel just because the manufacturer says so? Probably but my results are satisfactory so I don't lose sleep over it. I probably just made some gear-head out there cringe but its the truth!

Ryan Avery
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Old June 11th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #198
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So... is there an easy way to compensate for this in post? I shot a graduation with an EX1 and an XHA1. On the Canon, the caps and gowns look black... Not so much on the EX1.

I'm using Axio / PPro 3. Any suggestions to help them cut together more seemlessly.
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Old June 16th, 2008, 12:21 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Carlson View Post
So... is there an easy way to compensate for this in post? I shot a graduation with an EX1 and an XHA1. On the Canon, the caps and gowns look black... Not so much on the EX1.

I'm using Axio / PPro 3. Any suggestions to help them cut together more seemlessly.
Once IR light has contaminated an image, it is in there for good. You would have to affect all of your black levels in post and everything would look oversaturated and no details. It would look like you took a black marker to everything.

The 486 filter or the new Schneider True-Cut filter (the 486 minus the UV for less internal lens reflections) would solve this problem.

Ryan Avery
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Old June 16th, 2008, 12:48 PM   #200
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Ryan

If I understand you the 489 77mm filter would be used when using a DOF adaptor such as the Letus and the 486 true cut when just using the camera without any other adaptors.

What is the model of the 77mm 489 that has threads on both sides?
What is the model of the 77mm 486 trucut?

Thanks

Chuck
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Old June 19th, 2008, 10:39 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Wall View Post
Ryan

If I understand you the 489 77mm filter would be used when using a DOF adaptor such as the Letus and the 486 true cut when just using the camera without any other adaptors.

What is the model of the 77mm 489 that has threads on both sides?
What is the model of the 77mm 486 trucut?

Thanks

Chuck
You have it right.

The 77mm 489 filter part number is: 65-019107

The 77mm 486 filter (IR and UV filtration): 65-031976

The True-Cut IR filter (IR filtration only): part number TBA, Call me

We have two formulations of the IR filters. The first is the B+W 486 which was originally designed for postal sorting and then transitioned to the still photography market. This filter blocks UV and IR light. It exhibits a shalower angle of incidence so wide angle lenses are more likely to have color fringing. The second filter is the Schneider True-Cut filter which is only IR light blocking and can be used at wider angles.

Why use the 486 you will ask? Because the 486 filters out UV light and if you find yourself at higher altitudes where UV light abounds, then you will avoid the blue light contamination.

If this doesn't concern you, then jump right in and order the Schneider True-Cut IR.

Ryan Avery
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Old June 19th, 2008, 10:48 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Avery View Post
You have it right.

The 77mm 489 filter part number is: 65-019107

The 77mm 486 filter (IR and UV filtration): 65-031976

The True-Cut IR filter (IR filtration only): part number TBA, Call me

We have two formulations of the IR filters. The first is the B+W 486 which was originally designed for postal sorting and then transitioned to the still photography market. This filter blocks UV and IR light. It exhibits a shallower angle of incidence so wide angle lenses are more likely to have color fringing. The second filter is the Schneider True-Cut filter which is only IR light blocking and can be used at wider angles.

Why use the 486 you will ask? Because the 486 filters out UV light and if you find yourself at higher altitudes where UV light abounds, then you will avoid the blue light contamination.

If this doesn't concern you, then jump right in and order the Schneider True-Cut IR.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics
Dear Ryan,

With all this new information (particularly the new TRU-CUT specs), I feel I was misled by your (and Schneider in general) advertising your current (i.e. 486 and 489) filters - especially in the context of my 35mm adapter setup.

I have already paid /sold half-price/ bought again 3 Schneider IR cut filters; please tell me exactly which filter I should be getting, and where to order it (the local suppliers you contacted me with know nothing about the Tru-cut filters).

Thanks,

Piotr
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Old June 19th, 2008, 12:20 PM   #203
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I must say I've been confused by all I've read on this thread as well.

Tell me I've got this right.

The 489 will allow wider lenses and only blocks IR not UV (fine with me)
It is safer to use between lenses because it absorbs light
but it looks green on the B&H web site
- does this mean it needs more color correction than the 486?
- does it lose much light?

The 486 is colorless and has more trouble with wide lenses.
It also could potentially create a problem if used between lenses or filters because it reflects IR & UV

- Lenny
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Old June 19th, 2008, 03:20 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
I must say I've been confused by all I've read on this thread as well.

Tell me I've got this right.

The 489 will allow wider lenses and only blocks IR not UV (fine with me)
It is safer to use between lenses because it absorbs light
but it looks green on the B&H web site
- does this mean it needs more color correction than the 486?
- does it lose much light?

The 486 is colorless and has more trouble with wide lenses.
It also could potentially create a problem if used between lenses or filters because it reflects IR & UV

- Lenny

Before Ryan addresses your questions, Lenny, I can tell you that in the specs, the 486 transparency is said to be 100% (the coefficient of 1.0, with that of the 489 being 1.2). So yes - the 489 looses some (just a tiny bit) more light than the 486. But even though I've kept asking for several weeks, it's only now that I'm learning the 489 does NOT cause the same green cast due to the light incidence angle at extremities, as the 486 does.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 04:07 PM   #205
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So far the 489 sounds better for my uses, as the wide angle issue is a major drag. Also I expect I may only use it when needed - if there is a problem with a shot, so the green cast would be a better trade off.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 10:25 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Dear Ryan,

With all this new information (particularly the new TRU-CUT specs), I feel I was misled by your (and Schneider in general) advertising your current (i.e. 486 and 489) filters - especially in the context of my 35mm adapter setup.

I have already paid /sold half-price/ bought again 3 Schneider IR cut filters; please tell me exactly which filter I should be getting, and where to order it (the local suppliers you contacted me with know nothing about the Tru-cut filters).

Thanks,

Piotr
Piotr,

I am sorry if we had a misunderstanding. I also apologize that I have been unable to help you in your country with this problem. I work for Schneider Optics which is the USA distributor for Schneider-Krueznach products. I hope the people in our Germany office who I have helped put you in contact with will resolve your issues.

The 489 is most useful in situations where you are only putting it inbetween optical elements. It is not designed to be used on the exterior of the lens where it's efficiency decreases.

If you are placing it outside the lens then the 486 or even better yet the new True-Cut filter is best.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 10:43 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
I must say I've been confused by all I've read on this thread as well.

Tell me I've got this right.

The 489 will allow wider lenses and only blocks IR not UV (fine with me)
It is safer to use between lenses because it absorbs light
but it looks green on the B&H web site
- does this mean it needs more color correction than the 486?
- does it lose much light?

The 486 is colorless and has more trouble with wide lenses.
It also could potentially create a problem if used between lenses or filters because it reflects IR & UV

- Lenny

Lenny,

Piotr's last post about the color correction and transmission of the 486 and 489 is correct.

If you are shooting with the IR filter in the front of your lens then you should use the 486 or the new Schneider True-Cut filter which is a Schneider Motion Picture and Television product. These are made here in the US specifically for video and film applications. The B+W 489 is an exceptional product but was designed specifically for photographic use. This use requires more IR cutting capabilities and less angle of view therefore is more efficient. Video and film require less IR cutting capabilties to maintain a usable angle of view. This filter did not exist when we started this thread so I apologize for any inconvenience or confusing this has caused. The Schneider True-Cut will be available for purchase in the coming weeks.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 08:30 PM   #208
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Ryan ,
I don't know why I continue to be confused, maybe there is a language problem or perhaps I'm dense.
I am very concerned about the inability of the 486 to deal with wide lenses. I would not want to purchase anything so limited.

Yet in the post above you say that the 489 is good for lenses with less angle of view. Those ideas sound contradictory. Which filter is better for wide lenses?

I don't understand why you are saying the 489 is not good if placed in front of lenses. Is the only problem a slight green cast or is there also a wide lens issue? Does its greater IR reduction have a bad side affect.

Lenny Levy
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Old June 28th, 2008, 09:57 AM   #209
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I called Sony today to inquire about this "Black is brown/red" issue and the support guy had not heard if it and had to search to see if anybody ever called in about it.

He said one person called in and mentioned their blacks looked brown and it was fixed with a master pedestal adjustment.

So either Sony has their head in the sand or everybody with this problem needs to start calling Sony Professional and telling them about their experiences!

There are some folks over in a Panasonic camp that are really jumping on this bandwagon in this issue.

I would like to know for sure if it is global or only certain cameras before jumping in.
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Old June 28th, 2008, 07:58 PM   #210
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I would like to know for sure if it is global or only certain cameras before jumping in.
I think I can safely say this is a global problem. If you've followed the discussion of this problem you'll also be aware that it's not unique to the EX1 either.
Aside from the IR problem we're also finding the EX1 can need additional ND filtering in full sunlight if you don't want to use faster shutter speeds and irrational f stops. For the moment all our EX1s have 486 filters. We're looking around for ND hot glass filters in 4"x4 5/6" for our matte boxes. Pancro seem to be about the only supplier of such filters.

Our current thinking is to avoid the use of the internal ND filters entirely and control light and IR through filters in a matte box. This will hopefully avoid the IR problem and the back focus problem. There's some cost involved but the money will be spent on kit that'll still be in service long after the EX1 is obsolete.
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