Strobing / flicker effect when panning in 24p - Page 4 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 24th, 2008, 09:55 AM   #46
Major Player
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Posts: 285
I did a test:
I put my 24p-recording-ex1 with a 11.25°-shutter on a rotating chair. Because of the inertia of the chair-camera-combination it should be a smooth motion. Also I used a light for having a traceable spot in the picture. Then I blended the recorded frames together for transforming the problem of checking the smoothness of motion to the problem of checking the regularity of a pattern. My conclusion is that it's absolutely smooth! Perfect 24p-recording without any judder!
Here is the blended picture:
http://www.dominik.ws/24p-test.png
And here is a single frame of it:
http://www.dominik.ws/24p-test-frame6.png
Dominik Seibold is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #47
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mtl, CDN
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Thomas View Post
24 progressive frames per second is 24 frames per second. Throw the footage onto your time line and count them. They're there.
This is like saying a Hummer has 4 tires, count them, they're there. But for some strange reason mine just doesn't accelerate well. Could it be the driver or is it under the hood?
Robert St-Onge is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #48
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
Here's a thought: The EX1 is one of the sharpest cameras out there. The extra image sharpness gives the eye more to lock on too so the jump from one frame to the next is visually more pronounced. My test shots of the EX1 at 25P with fast pans following aircraft look completely normal to me. Also the EX1's LCD seems to add judder that is not actually present on the cameras output.
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 10:18 AM   #49
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mtl, CDN
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
Also the EX1's LCD seems to add judder
Yes, it does add more than there is on the actual shots
Robert St-Onge is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 10:27 AM   #50
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mtl, CDN
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
Here's a thought: The EX1 is one of the sharpest cameras out there. The extra image sharpness gives the eye more to lock on too so the jump from one frame to the next is visually more pronounced.
I am using a Letus Extreme, and shallow depth of field, the problem is still there. In comparison, the JVC HD250 with 18x4.2 BRM-M48 Fujinon was very sharp, well it looked like it was electronically boosted sharpness, and with no shallow depth of field, it was nice 24p motion.

Anyhow, I know all these are subtleties, I can most likely live with it, but my number one problem at this point is the color rendition of the EX1, blacks clothing looking brownish, this is far from being subtle, especially when you are doing corporate work!

Last edited by Robert St-Onge; May 24th, 2008 at 03:04 PM.
Robert St-Onge is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 10:50 AM   #51
Major Player
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Posts: 285
Here's a slow one with 79 frames:
http://www.dominik.ws/24p-test2.png
Again absolute regular (as regular as my chair rotates ;) ).
The ex1 really does its job right.
Dominik Seibold is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 10:53 AM   #52
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DFW area, TX
Posts: 6,108
Images: 1
Quote:
...it is a shame that new/amateur videographers like myself have been shy to ask questions for the fear of being ridiculed.
That is exactly what DVINFO WILL NOT stand for. If you feel that way, the forum is failing because one of the greatest strengths of this forum is that new/amateurs can seek advice of professionals and expect to receive courteous, helpful responses.

If you or anyone ever feels ridiculed, please avail yourself of the "report bad post" button to the left. All DVINFO mods will be alerted.

I myself, have answered the same questions over and over to different folks and feel that the slight inconvenience it may feel like is greatly overshadowed by the goodwill it promotes.

Don't be shy, Todd. Seriously, I mean that.

regards,

-gb-
Greg Boston is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #53
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold View Post
Here's a slow one with 79 frames:
http://www.dominik.ws/24p-test2.png
Again absolute regular (as regular as my chair rotates ;) ).
The ex1 really does its job right.
Of course it does. 24 fps and they're all there.

But the frame sequence you are showing would probably be stroby in motion by virtue of its narrow shutter.

Try turning off the shutter and do the same thing and you should see continuous (or almost, depending on the composite method you are using) streaks.

Try 180° and you'll see a dotted line with half on/half off cadence. This is what any film or progressive camera should be shooting for the generally accepted "film look"
Eric Pascarelli is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 11:05 AM   #54
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 2,130
Well said Greg. This forum is well moderated, and abusive or aggressive posts in particular I know are not tolerated and I have seen them dealt with.
Keep up the good work guys.
Steve
Steve Phillipps is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 11:39 AM   #55
Tourist
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Beecher City IL
Posts: 1
First I would like to say I totally disagree with Eric Pascarelli. I have worked with 35mm film for 8 years, both still and motion. The EX1 has flicker ever on slow moving shots and people with a good eye can tell. If you have an EX1 do the following (24p 180 shuttle) shoot while zooming, not too fast and make sure you are at a steady rate of zoom speed on a person or sharp defining object such as a book cover (do this while holding camera). when you play back, freeze frame, then play one frame at a time you will notice that on a wide to tight shot some will be in focus and some wont. the fact of the matter is there are many different shots that show flicker people just look at your subjects if you do not notice flicker and out of focus get your eyes checked out. Some people are uneasy with coming to terms that their new EX1 as well as all 24p HD cameras on the market suffer from rolling shutter as well as 23.98 not true 24 frames . I am one who has a love hate relationship with my EX1.
Nick Baker is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 12:01 PM   #56
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts: 3,778
I think we need a Sticky on basic trouble shooting or system setup.

Like:
Check HD playback on HD monitor or HDTV.
Make sure input to HDTV actually spec'd to handle and display the signal you're inputing (for example: component input on some HDTV is only 1080i, not 1080p)
EX LCD, while excellent for focus and framing, may not be most accurate for color or motion display.
Be aware that a monitor that is not calibrated may not be color accurate.
Be aware that Computer may have issues decoding the XDCAM EX codec in real time at full frame size.
Be aware NLE may be doing scaling on the fly, which will impact various playback aspects negatively.
Be aware that compressing the file to another codec may introduce or exaggerate certain aspects negatively.

The best way to check a recording may be from "native" or "rewraped" (but not re-encoded) file (MP4, MXF, MOV from Sony Clip Transfer) played to HDMI input to HDTV or HD-SDI to HD Monitor from a Computer known to handle the source file decode and playback without issue. HDTV should be able to handle both 1080P input and display.
Craig Seeman is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 12:06 PM   #57
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 276
Images: 2
Could it be issues with the batches of cameras Sony has put out? I have not had any issues with pans. I've done TONS of tests when getting my LEX setup correctly and comparisons. I also get clean blacks, reds, etc. No vinetting, etc.

BTW, another thought - and this is the bigger point/question I have:

HAS anyone checked to see if its the codec written to the cards that the issue? I'm wondering if anyone is capturing out of the HDSDI and seeing much better results capturing into an intraframe codec instead of the GOP we get on the cards.
Jeremy Hughes is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 12:39 PM   #58
Major Player
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nuremberg, Germany
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Baker View Post
If you have an EX1 do the following (24p 180 shuttle) shoot while zooming, not too fast and make sure you are at a steady rate of zoom speed on a person or sharp defining object such as a book cover (do this while holding camera). when you play back, freeze frame, then play one frame at a time you will notice that on a wide to tight shot some will be in focus and some wont.
I did:
http://www.dominik.ws/zoom.mov
This is a 100% frame-crop. On the upper right you can see the whole picture.
24p, 180°-shutter, f2.4, full MF, linear 10s-shot-transition from full wide to full tele.
Each frame is perfectly in focus.
But this was shot on a tripod. Why should I hold the camera while doing this??
Dominik Seibold is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 02:03 PM   #59
New Boot
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Westchester, New York
Posts: 24
Ummm... I noticed the same thing then just took off the "auto-gain", "stabilization", "auto-white" settings, as well as everything else where it looked like Sony was trying to Vista"ize" my production experience.

After I did that the camera began to sing.
Alex Gutterson is offline  
Old May 24th, 2008, 04:04 PM   #60
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St-Onge View Post
I am using a Letus Extreme, and shallow depth of field, the problem is still there. In comparison, the JVC HD250 with 18x4.2 BRM-M48 Fujinon was very sharp, well it looked like it was electronically boosted sharpness, and with no shallow depth of field, it was nice 24p motion.
I've owned the JVC HD100 for a couple years and have a lot of footage. The motion looks the same, except the JVC codec can fall apart with real high detail motion such as water or rustling of leaves.
Steven Thomas is offline  
Closed Thread

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:21 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network