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Old June 29th, 2008, 03:13 PM   #16
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Also, it's important to remember that DETAIL setting is not just about edge enhancement; setting it to ON (not to mention cranking it up into positive territories) may "enhance" noise considerably. Therefore, if one is after punchy edges, it's good to counterbalance by masking the noise with the CRISP parameter turned up from the default value of 0.
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Old June 29th, 2008, 06:17 PM   #17
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Therefore, if one is after punchy edges, it's good to counterbalance by masking the noise with the CRISP parameter turned up from the default value of 0.
And the knee aperture turned DOWN.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 02:20 AM   #18
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And the knee aperture turned DOWN.
What does knee aperture do?
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Old June 30th, 2008, 02:37 AM   #19
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KNEE APERTURE helps in reproducing solid picture edges in compressed highlights:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/f...ture_Edges.pdf
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Old June 30th, 2008, 03:07 AM   #20
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KNEE APERTURE helps in reproducing solid picture edges in compressed highlights:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/f...ture_Edges.pdf
Thanks Piotr! I got it. So you are saying if sharpness is turned down it is good to turn knee aperture up a bit to avoid getting an image that is to fuzzy?
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Old June 30th, 2008, 03:13 AM   #21
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Thanks Piotr! I got it. So you are saying if sharpness is turned down it is good to turn knee aperture up a bit to avoid getting an image that is to fuzzy?
Well, these are independent things - Tom has mentioned this parameter as a good way to recreate edge definition, deteriorated by the highlights compression; it doesn't need to have anything in common with the level of DETAIL, which is applied to the whole picture (not just highlights).
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Old June 30th, 2008, 03:42 AM   #22
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Well, these are independent things - Tom has mentioned this parameter as a good way to recreate edge definition, deteriorated by the highlights compression; it doesn't need to have anything in common with the level of DETAIL, which is applied to the whole picture (not just highlights).
Thanks again Priotr! I am right now doing some tests and have found a detail level of 15 an acceptable compromise. I also tried changing the crispening between 0,15 and 60 but could not see any difference. What numbers are you guys using to reduce noise? That's what it's supposed to do right?
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Old June 30th, 2008, 04:12 AM   #23
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Ola,

When I switch Detail on (never higher than 0), I sometimes use crispening to get rid of excessive noise; you're right that for really visible effects, it needs to be at 60+. But it does work - best on the mosquito noise (not the chroma noise, typical for lowlight areas).

However, I'm using Detail off most of the time and leave crispening at the default value of 0.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 06:37 AM   #24
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For dramatic stuff I will usually turn the detail off. Be very careful with some of the newer cameras (and I believe the PDW-700 is included in this judging by the pre production one I used unless they have changed it) as going negative too far actually artificially softens the picture.

-20 on the XDCAM cameras is usually 'real' 0. So you might like to try that as a base point from which to make further adjustments. Not sure about the 700 though as I haven't had my hands on a final production version yet.

As Piotr pointed out, you may also have to adjust the crispening function too when you adjust detail, as well as Level Depend, and also Aperture frequency and Aperture level. They all interact and getting the balance can be difficult unless you really know what you are doing.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 06:44 AM   #25
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Simon,

Any hints on a correlation between Level Depend and the EX1 menu items?
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Old June 30th, 2008, 07:39 AM   #26
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Thanks for all the feedback guys, very helpful. I shot a sports event yesterday with Detail off and the results look great so I'll leave it off for now.

I'm assuming a similar effect could be had in post anyway if required.

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Old June 30th, 2008, 10:50 AM   #27
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If you use detail you should also adjust frequency. A higher frequency gives a thinner "halo" line. Like most EX1 settings, the right level for all of the detail settings is dependent on the scene you are shooting.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 11:55 AM   #28
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I REDUCE the knee aperture setting, to reduce the perception of excessive sharpening in the highlights of foliage, and leaves. I want acceptable detail in the greenery without excessive definition in the compressed highlights, i.e. the white glinting highlights on tree leaves, white caps on water etc. Those are the high contrast cues that can wreck an image with the perception of EE and ringing noise.

You DECREASE knee aperture to reduce the sharpening effect on those hightlights. You want to retain the definition within the greenery and mid-tones, but not sparkle it with white glinting highlights that scream of sharpening.

The frequency setting is a filter. Increasing the value (I think I'm right) applies filtering to prevent MOIRE on highly detailed geometric shapes like chain link or picket fences. Reducing it (I think I'm right) passes more detail but also possibly allows moire artifacts to be passed to the image.

Crispening is like the CORING filter in the Canon family of cameras. Increasing the crispening increases the noise filtering, cutting down on fine grain type noise but also softening the detail.

As a starting point for 24p, you could try:

Detail -13
Crispening: +5
Knee Aperture: -5

One problem, is that different settings should be considered according to the gamma selected and the color matrix. For Std3, you need to consider the manual knee gamma (apart from the knee aperture in detail). HiSat does not look very natural to me in Std3, as it does in Cine1. HiSat ranges from okay in bright daylight to excessively unnatural in flat light, in Std3.

So I think a problem we have in agreeing on one detail setting (or even just on or off) depends so much on the other settings we are using with it.

But to add one footnote to the discussion, I think the knee aperture has the more direct influence on the offensive black/white halos than does the frequency.

I hope to experiment with the white and black limiters within the detail menu, but so far I am rather pleased with the settings I'm using for 24p, and have a little more work to do for 60i.

I like the Std3 gamma in combination with the manual knee gamma settings, and Std color matrix +4 which means I'm operating with a different starting point than the majority who are using the cine gammas.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 03:07 PM   #29
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See page 72 of the EX1 manual - "Setting the center frequency higher decreases the details,"

It does this by making the edge enhancement narrower. Higher frequency = narrower. Lower frequency = wider.

Here is a link to a Google book excerpt that explains detail controls. You may have to copy/paste -

http://books.google.com/books?id=5jA...obo08y8PmIkPyA

Good book by the way. Lots of simple explanations for things that are not very obvious without an explanation.

Quoting the Detail Frequency section "this control affects the width of edge enhancement around objects. Increasing the detail frequency value decreases the width of the edge enhancement." -Peter Ward

Detail frequency has been doing this since the adjustment was made on internal circuit boards with a tiny screwdriver. And yes, fatter lines will also increase moire.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 09:23 PM   #30
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George, if I hadn't been wrong (and you right) about the frequency settings, you wouldn't have called me out on it, therefore I accept your thanks ;-)

Seriously, great link and information from the betacam book.
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