SDHC substitute for SxS cards

Marten Dalfors · September 13th, 2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marten Dalfors

Just recevied the Kensington adapter. I had a Transcend 16Gb Class 6 SDHC card already. Short tests gives me this:

720/50p: ok
720/25p: ok
1080/25p: ok
720/25p at 50 or 60 fps: media error after 10sec

Note that this is only a few minutes recording. Right now I have the camera running at 1080/25p and hope fill up the entire card. I'll get back with the result.

As I said before the above was done with with short recordings. The bad news is that when I put the camera to record for an hour or so, parts of the recordings were corrupted. No error messages in the camera, everything seemed ok, but when I tried opening it up in the computer the one of the mp4 files in the recordings was so corrupted windows couln't read the file or delete it. Had to reformat the card to get rid of it. I tried several long redordings (from 30min to 90min) and I got at least one corrupt file on about half of them. I tried both 1080/25p and SD 1080/50i and I got corruption on both of them. Since the camera splits long recording in max 3.6GB files the whole recording was not lost. By the way, does anybody know why the split is 3.6GB then around 200MB then 3.6GB then 200MB (long, short, long, short) and so on?

It might be that I have a faulty card or adapter, but I have used the card before and have had no problem. So maybe the adapter, but I would strongly advise to test this setup with long recordings and check the result in the computer before using it on an important shoot.

It would be very interesting to se hear if someone else get different result with same setup. If I get the chance I will try with other SD card soon.

I use an EX3, missed that info last time.

Jon Sands · September 13th, 2008, 01:39 PM

I'm pretty sure the best bet is the transcend 8gb cards, as the 16gb are slower. 8 Seems to be the best balance.

Marten Dalfors · September 13th, 2008, 01:57 PM

At my dealers site the 16GB card was rated higher (12MB/s) than the 8GB (6MB/s) card. I'm sure thats wrong information, but since I already had it, I wanted to try it.

Also is it only the card that is the limiting factor? I wounder if the USB interface these adapters are using is fast enough. Because the the class 6 specification of minimum 6MB/s should be enough to cover SD 1080/50i in theory.

Andrew Hollister · September 13th, 2008, 03:57 PM

Admittedly, I am not sure what the technical differences are between Secure Digital and Compact Flash, besides size. But I realize that some people wouldn't want a CF adapter and card hanging out of their cameras.

While reading this thread, I've been googling trying to learn more, I've found in the Red One forum's people are somewhat in the same predicament. Looking for cheaper media. It would seem they (Red peoples) discovered that Red are using Lexar 8GB UDMA 300x CompactFlash Cards Found here on B&H for $75 ($155 with a $80 mail-in rebate offer).

Cost breakdown of their CF cards vs. our SxS:
-- SxS: 8GB - $500 ~ 16GB $850 -- (also found B&H discontinued the SanDisk 8GB)
-- RED: 8GB - $199 ~ 16GB $550 -- proven to sustain a 4K data rate.
-- LEXAR: 8GB - $75
note: Regarding the Red 16GB cards, they have yet to determine the manufacturer, or an alternative.

That said, I think the Red (or Lexar) CF cards coupled with the correct CF to PC Express adapter, you'd have a winning solution. Albeit, not as aesthetically pleasing as a door closing Secure Digital solution... but there would be some noticeable savings.

For those searching the Secure Digital path, I found this and this on a 32GB Panasonic SDHC card claiming to get 20mb/s.

Hope this helps more than hurts,
Andrew

Steven Thomas · September 13th, 2008, 04:34 PM

Andrew I agree.
I did try a Dakin expresscard to CF (which claimed it was PCIe based) and it would not recognize the card. Maybe it was the RIDATA 233X 32 GB CF card? I did have an older 66X CF card kicking around and the EX1 would not recognize the Dakin expresscard>CF adaptor with thi older CF either.

Please check out my new thread labeled "FAST SDHC Memory for the EX1".

It involves us all running tests using the FREE same speed test software and reporting data rate numbers.

Steven Thomas · September 13th, 2008, 05:29 PM

Sorry for the long rant, but this MAY be extremely helpful is getting us closer to finding a MUCH cheaper memory solution for the EX1. Please read on, I need your help to find the fastest SDHC cards possible

I've been trying to find the fastest SDHC memory possible to use with the AFT PROExpress-7 ExpressCard Reader.
PROExpress-7-Atech Flash Technology

Why this expresscard adaptor. Easy, the SDHC memory cards fit in the adapter AND allows the EX1 memory compartment to close!

OK, I've been having "almost success" with some cards.
Why "almost"? Well, I've been able to capture 20 minutes of 1080 24P without any errors recording and playback. Here's the issue. the success rate is intermittent.

My thought RIGHT NOW is that the majority of the issue is the slow RANDOM ACCESS time from these SDHC cards. Also, the sustained data rate must be kept high for READING and ESPECIALLY WRITING data.

What I'm finding is that several cards I've tested are reading sustained data rates with no issues and maintaining around 18MB/s.
The problem is, the WRITE speed runs from 3.7MB/s to 10.6MB/s (NOTE: this was using the ADATA 8GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6 card. This card does not perform (at least based on the CLASS 6 designation) as advertised. CLASS 6 states the minimum data rate should not fall below 6MB/S.

Interesting, I tried the SansDisk Ultra II CLASS 4 (min. 4MB transfer rate).
The sustained (MB/s) READ and WRITE speeds were consistant (At least during my tests) and maintained between 16.8 to 17.4 WRITE and 18.19 to 18.21 READ data rate.

Having seen that, I was surprised that the card does occasionally error when used in the EX1. Here's the deal, my thought is it's not JUST the sustained data rate, but how well it writes and reads randomly when asked to.

My conclusion is based on several factors. One, the card works best with no errors when formated and recording without stopping. If I start and stop recording times quickly, an error can occur. Two, I am using memory data rate testing software which evaluates sustained and random data writes and reads.

I was able to test the SxS memory card as a comparison.
Here's the results:

ADATA 8GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6:

Sustained data rate: Read: 18.64MB/s to 18.69MB/s Write: 3.72MB/s to 10.68MB/s
Random 512K file: Read: 17.96MB/s to 18.69MB/s Write: 2.70MB/s to 3.10MB/s
Random 4K file: Read: 3.57MB/s to 3.91MB/s Write: 0.033MB/s to 0.035MB/s

SanDisk Ultra II SDHC CLASS 4:

Sustained data rate: Read: 18.19MB/s to 18.21MB/s Write: 16.02MB/s to 17.40MB/s
Random 512K file: Read: 17.34MB/s to 17.44MB/s Write: 2.69MB/s to 2.85MB/s
Random 4K file: Read: 3.13MB/s to 3.31MB/s Write: 0.027MB/s to 0.031MB/s

Sony SxS PRO 16GB:

Sustained data rate: Read: 27.53MB/s to 27.57MB/s Write: 20.52MB/s to 20.68MB/s
Random 512K file: Read: 27.51MB/s to 27.54MB/s Write: 7.45MB/s to 8.41MB/s
Random 4K file: Read: 6.45MB/s to 6.46MB/s Write: 0.132MB/s to 0.148MB/s

As you can see, the SxS random write is between 2 to 3 times faster than the SanDisk Ultra II CLASS 4 card. I'm sure no one is suprised with these results. Also the data is based on one test. For all I know, and I imagine so, the SxS card within the EX1 performs even faster than these results show.

But, this MAY give us a baseline for finding the fastest SDHC cards possible. As I mentioned earlier, the SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s card "might" just work. I'm hoping its random read/write is faster along with the claimed data rate improvement.

If anyone can help us out here, it's SanDisk. The results on the Ultra II CLASS 4 SDHC card are better than the CLASS 6 card ADATA.

I won't have the new Extreme card until 2 weeks.

PLEASE download the following Drive Speed Software (PC based, although there maybe a mac version up there too?). It's real easy to run. Just unzip and run the executable. There's no install program, only an executable. Since each tests runs five times, you need to write down the numbers as it runs. This way we can see the min-max data rate range.

Download (Win 2000, XP, VISTA):
http://dl.crystaldew.info/CrystalCPUID

Their Site: Crystal Dew World - Download Center

PLEASE try your SDHC cards (Transcend (I'm wondering about this card) ect...) and post the results like I did with the above. If you want, take my above results and paste into your message and we can keep a running log of tried SDHC cards.

Also, use only on SDHC cards. PLain old SD cards will not work with the EX1/AFX Express card.

BTW, If none of this crap works good enough in the end. It was worth a shot.
But, SInce I was able to capture over 20 minutes of 1080 24P without an error, it would be stupid not to try to find the fastest memory possible.
We are real close.

Andrew Hollister · September 13th, 2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

AFT PROExpress-7 ExpressCard Reader.
PROExpress-7-Atech Flash Technology

I've just ordered my PROExpress reader from Newegg. Also ordered a Panasonic 8GB SDHC from B&H. All told, I spent $107.18 (($31.98 on the reader and $75.20 on the card))

Details to follow as soon as I have all the bits in hand.

Steven Thomas · September 13th, 2008, 10:59 PM

Thanks Andrew,
If you're up for it, download the Drive Speed Software. I posted the link above.
Run the test on the Panasonic SDHC card and post the results.

Scott Hayes · September 14th, 2008, 01:10 AM

which is the best bang for the buck, 8gb Lexar SSDs, or a pair of Kensington readers
and Transcend 8gb Class 6 cards? I am leaning toward the SSDs.

Marten Dalfors · September 14th, 2008, 01:50 AM

Transcend 16GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6 and Kensington adapter:

Sustained data rate: Read: 18.82MB/s Write: 12.38MB/s
Random 512K file: Read: 18.68MB/s Write: 2.09MB/s
Random 4K file: Read: 4.28MB/s Write: 0.019MB/s

Dan Chung · September 14th, 2008, 03:49 AM

Does anyone know if there is any mac speed test software, I have a l lot of cards , Transcend 8 and 16gb class 6, Lexar 4gb 133x class 6, and Sandisk 4gb Ducati 20MB/s but no way to test them. Also I can't find the PROExpress-7 reader in China so I can't test in the camera.

Steven Thomas · September 14th, 2008, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marten Dalfors

Transcend 16GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6 and Kensington adapter:

Sustained data rate: Read: 18.82MB/s Write: 12.38MB/s
Random 512K file: Read: 18.68MB/s Write: 2.09MB/s
Random 4K file: Read: 4.28MB/s Write: 0.019MB/s

Thanks Marten!

Marten, are those numbers the final values when the test finished?
The software runs each test, sustained and random five times.

I had to write each one down as it ran. This way you can capture the min to max range of each test. The numbers at the end are the highest of each test five run

Are you up for running that again with a min-max range?

Steven Thomas · September 14th, 2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Chung

Does anyone know if there is any mac speed test software, I have a l lot of cards , Transcend 8 and 16gb class 6, Lexar 4gb 133x class 6, and Sandisk 4gb Ducati 20MB/s but no way to test them. Also I can't find the PROExpress-7 reader in China so I can't test in the camera.

Amazon UK has it. Can you order from there?

I would not run out an buy the PROExpress-7 yet.

I'd wait until we have more users try the drive speed test software I posted above.
Based on the SDHC card drive speed tests results, I can try the best cards with the EX1 and save everyone the headache and wasted $$$ for cards and adaptor that may not work in the end.

Steven Thomas · September 14th, 2008, 03:08 PM

Brians list updated:

SIGG 11/1 EXPRESS READER 11in1 ExpressCard Reader
WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11

Kensington 7 in 1 Media Reader for ExpressCard Slot" model number 33407EU
W/ 8Gb Transcend class 6 SD cards
WORKING WITH EX3 SP AND HQ MODE EX1?

Lexar 8GB SSD Express Card
WORK WITH EX1 firmware 1.11 AND EX3 SP MODE ONLY

Lexar 16Gb SSD Express Card This card is slower than the 8gb
WORK WITH EX1 firmware 1.11 AND EX3 SP MODE ONLY error message no lost of data

Transend 8gb 16gb SSD Express card
WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11 or EX3

EXPRESS CARD TO COMPACT FLASH ADAPTER
WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11 EX3?

SONY MSACEX1 MEMORY STICK(R) DUO EXPRESSCARD(TM) ADAPTER
WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11 EX3?

A-DATA 16GB Expresscard Flash Drive.
Will not work at all with EX1 firmware v1.1

Steven Thomas · September 14th, 2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyvind Stokkan

I tried a Sandisk EXIII 8GB SD card with a 12in1 expresscard reader. Did not work. It said unknow media before I even inserted the SD. Anybody tried the sony EX MemoryStick adapter?

Oyvind,
Could you please let us know the exact expresscard adaptor and SDHC memory card that failed?

September 13th, 2008, 03:57 PM	#109
Andrew Hollister Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Decatur, GA Posts: 198	Admittedly, I am not sure what the technical differences are between Secure Digital and Compact Flash, besides size. But I realize that some people wouldn't want a CF adapter and card hanging out of their cameras. While reading this thread, I've been googling trying to learn more, I've found in the Red One forum's people are somewhat in the same predicament. Looking for cheaper media. It would seem they (Red peoples) discovered that Red are using Lexar 8GB UDMA 300x CompactFlash Cards Found here on B&H for $75 ($155 with a $80 mail-in rebate offer). Cost breakdown of their CF cards vs. our SxS: -- SxS: 8GB - $500 ~ 16GB $850 -- (also found B&H discontinued the SanDisk 8GB) -- RED: 8GB - $199 ~ 16GB $550 -- proven to sustain a 4K data rate. -- LEXAR: 8GB - $75 note: Regarding the Red 16GB cards, they have yet to determine the manufacturer, or an alternative. That said, I think the Red (or Lexar) CF cards coupled with the correct CF to PC Express adapter, you'd have a winning solution. Albeit, not as aesthetically pleasing as a door closing Secure Digital solution... but there would be some noticeable savings. For those searching the Secure Digital path, I found this and this on a 32GB Panasonic SDHC card claiming to get 20mb/s. Hope this helps more than hurts, Andrew __________________ Sony EX1 v1.11, crap loads of SxS, Macs w/ Final Cut Studio

September 13th, 2008, 05:29 PM	#111
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	FAST SDHC Memory for the EX1 Sorry for the long rant, but this MAY be extremely helpful is getting us closer to finding a MUCH cheaper memory solution for the EX1. Please read on, I need your help to find the fastest SDHC cards possible I've been trying to find the fastest SDHC memory possible to use with the AFT PROExpress-7 ExpressCard Reader. PROExpress-7-Atech Flash Technology Why this expresscard adaptor. Easy, the SDHC memory cards fit in the adapter AND allows the EX1 memory compartment to close! OK, I've been having "almost success" with some cards. Why "almost"? Well, I've been able to capture 20 minutes of 1080 24P without any errors recording and playback. Here's the issue. the success rate is intermittent. My thought RIGHT NOW is that the majority of the issue is the slow RANDOM ACCESS time from these SDHC cards. Also, the sustained data rate must be kept high for READING and ESPECIALLY WRITING data. What I'm finding is that several cards I've tested are reading sustained data rates with no issues and maintaining around 18MB/s. The problem is, the WRITE speed runs from 3.7MB/s to 10.6MB/s (NOTE: this was using the ADATA 8GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6 card. This card does not perform (at least based on the CLASS 6 designation) as advertised. CLASS 6 states the minimum data rate should not fall below 6MB/S. Interesting, I tried the SansDisk Ultra II CLASS 4 (min. 4MB transfer rate). The sustained (MB/s) READ and WRITE speeds were consistant (At least during my tests) and maintained between 16.8 to 17.4 WRITE and 18.19 to 18.21 READ data rate. Having seen that, I was surprised that the card does occasionally error when used in the EX1. Here's the deal, my thought is it's not JUST the sustained data rate, but how well it writes and reads randomly when asked to. My conclusion is based on several factors. One, the card works best with no errors when formated and recording without stopping. If I start and stop recording times quickly, an error can occur. Two, I am using memory data rate testing software which evaluates sustained and random data writes and reads. I was able to test the SxS memory card as a comparison. Here's the results: ADATA 8GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6: Sustained data rate: Read: 18.64MB/s to 18.69MB/s Write: 3.72MB/s to 10.68MB/s Random 512K file: Read: 17.96MB/s to 18.69MB/s Write: 2.70MB/s to 3.10MB/s Random 4K file: Read: 3.57MB/s to 3.91MB/s Write: 0.033MB/s to 0.035MB/s SanDisk Ultra II SDHC CLASS 4: Sustained data rate: Read: 18.19MB/s to 18.21MB/s Write: 16.02MB/s to 17.40MB/s Random 512K file: Read: 17.34MB/s to 17.44MB/s Write: 2.69MB/s to 2.85MB/s Random 4K file: Read: 3.13MB/s to 3.31MB/s Write: 0.027MB/s to 0.031MB/s Sony SxS PRO 16GB: Sustained data rate: Read: 27.53MB/s to 27.57MB/s Write: 20.52MB/s to 20.68MB/s Random 512K file: Read: 27.51MB/s to 27.54MB/s Write: 7.45MB/s to 8.41MB/s Random 4K file: Read: 6.45MB/s to 6.46MB/s Write: 0.132MB/s to 0.148MB/s As you can see, the SxS random write is between 2 to 3 times faster than the SanDisk Ultra II CLASS 4 card. I'm sure no one is suprised with these results. Also the data is based on one test. For all I know, and I imagine so, the SxS card within the EX1 performs even faster than these results show. But, this MAY give us a baseline for finding the fastest SDHC cards possible. As I mentioned earlier, the SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s card "might" just work. I'm hoping its random read/write is faster along with the claimed data rate improvement. If anyone can help us out here, it's SanDisk. The results on the Ultra II CLASS 4 SDHC card are better than the CLASS 6 card ADATA. I won't have the new Extreme card until 2 weeks. PLEASE download the following Drive Speed Software (PC based, although there maybe a mac version up there too?). It's real easy to run. Just unzip and run the executable. There's no install program, only an executable. Since each tests runs five times, you need to write down the numbers as it runs. This way we can see the min-max data rate range. Download (Win 2000, XP, VISTA): http://dl.crystaldew.info/CrystalCPUID Their Site: Crystal Dew World - Download Center PLEASE try your SDHC cards (Transcend (I'm wondering about this card) ect...) and post the results like I did with the above. If you want, take my above results and paste into your message and we can keep a running log of tried SDHC cards. Also, use only on SDHC cards. PLain old SD cards will not work with the EX1/AFX Express card. BTW, If none of this crap works good enough in the end. It was worth a shot. But, SInce I was able to capture over 20 minutes of 1080 24P without an error, it would be stupid not to try to find the fastest memory possible. We are real close. Last edited by Steven Thomas; September 14th, 2008 at 09:32 AM.

September 14th, 2008, 01:10 AM	#114
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	what to order which is the best bang for the buck, 8gb Lexar SSDs, or a pair of Kensington readers and Transcend 8gb Class 6 cards? I am leaning toward the SSDs.

September 13th, 2008, 01:39 PM	#107
Jon Sands Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana Posts: 107	I'm pretty sure the best bet is the transcend 8gb cards, as the 16gb are slower. 8 Seems to be the best balance.

September 13th, 2008, 01:57 PM	#108
Marten Dalfors Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 61	At my dealers site the 16GB card was rated higher (12MB/s) than the 8GB (6MB/s) card. I'm sure thats wrong information, but since I already had it, I wanted to try it. Also is it only the card that is the limiting factor? I wounder if the USB interface these adapters are using is fast enough. Because the the class 6 specification of minimum 6MB/s should be enough to cover SD 1080/50i in theory.

September 13th, 2008, 04:34 PM	#110
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Andrew I agree. I did try a Dakin expresscard to CF (which claimed it was PCIe based) and it would not recognize the card. Maybe it was the RIDATA 233X 32 GB CF card? I did have an older 66X CF card kicking around and the EX1 would not recognize the Dakin expresscard>CF adaptor with thi older CF either. Please check out my new thread labeled "FAST SDHC Memory for the EX1". It involves us all running tests using the FREE same speed test software and reporting data rate numbers.

September 13th, 2008, 10:59 PM	#113
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thanks Andrew, If you're up for it, download the Drive Speed Software. I posted the link above. Run the test on the Panasonic SDHC card and post the results.

September 14th, 2008, 01:50 AM	#115
Marten Dalfors Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 61	Transcend 16GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6 and Kensington adapter: Sustained data rate: Read: 18.82MB/s Write: 12.38MB/s Random 512K file: Read: 18.68MB/s Write: 2.09MB/s Random 4K file: Read: 4.28MB/s Write: 0.019MB/s

September 14th, 2008, 03:49 AM	#116
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Does anyone know if there is any mac speed test software, I have a l lot of cards , Transcend 8 and 16gb class 6, Lexar 4gb 133x class 6, and Sandisk 4gb Ducati 20MB/s but no way to test them. Also I can't find the PROExpress-7 reader in China so I can't test in the camera.

September 14th, 2008, 03:08 PM	#119
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Brians list updated: SIGG 11/1 EXPRESS READER 11in1 ExpressCard Reader WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11 Kensington 7 in 1 Media Reader for ExpressCard Slot" model number 33407EU W/ 8Gb Transcend class 6 SD cards WORKING WITH EX3 SP AND HQ MODE EX1? Lexar 8GB SSD Express Card WORK WITH EX1 firmware 1.11 AND EX3 SP MODE ONLY Lexar 16Gb SSD Express Card This card is slower than the 8gb WORK WITH EX1 firmware 1.11 AND EX3 SP MODE ONLY error message no lost of data Transend 8gb 16gb SSD Express card WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11 or EX3 EXPRESS CARD TO COMPACT FLASH ADAPTER WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11 EX3? SONY MSACEX1 MEMORY STICK(R) DUO EXPRESSCARD(TM) ADAPTER WILL NOT WORK WITH THE EX1 firmware 1.11 EX3? A-DATA 16GB Expresscard Flash Drive. Will not work at all with EX1 firmware v1.1