EX1 & FCP ProRes 422 Question? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 10th, 2008, 09:52 AM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Munich Germany , Singapore ,NSW Australia
Posts: 419
EX1 & FCP ProRes 422 Question?

Hi Guys,

Can someone explain to me about this ProRes thing? I know that the EX1 is HDV and that in the Audio/Video Setting tad of FCP I can set the Sequence Present to Apple ProRes and also the Capture Present I can set it to HDV-Apple ProRes.

Question is? How do I capture and transcode to ProRes from HDV when I already save the files on to my harddrive from my SxS card before hand instead of using the camera or a capture deck to do it?

How do you guys do it? Please give me a pointer , I hate to cut it all and edit it and later with the finished product go to compressor to output it as ProRes
__________________
Website: http://www.Motiononcanvas.com Camera Operator in Sydney Australia and Singapore.
David Chia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 10:26 AM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Chia View Post
Hi Guys,

Can someone explain to me about this ProRes thing? I know that the EX1 is HDV
Well, to start with, the EX1 is not HDV...
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 10:42 AM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Munich Germany , Singapore ,NSW Australia
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
Well, to start with, the EX1 is not HDV...
it uses GOP if I am not wrong,and it captures 4:2:0 . so what is it then?

So I ask the question on ProRes, Do you have the answer to it? If you say it is not HDV. So how do I transcode it to ProREs from the capture part.
__________________
Website: http://www.Motiononcanvas.com Camera Operator in Sydney Australia and Singapore.
David Chia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 10:53 AM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Chia View Post
it uses GOP if I am not wrong,and it captures 4:2:0 . so what is it then?

So I ask the question on ProRes, Do you have the answer to it? If you say it is not HDV. So how do I transcode it to ProREs from the capture part.
HDV is specified as:

1440x1080i or 1280x720p, long GOP, 4:2:0 at 25 Mbit/s


Sony XDCam EX (what the EX1/EX3 shoots) is:

1920x1080p, Long GOP, 4:2:0 at 35 Mbit/s nominal with burst to 70 Mbit/s.

If you try to bring this data in as HDV it will fail, because it is not an HDV signal either in size or data rate.


As to your question, you should be able to create .mxf files from the clipbrowser software and simply drop them into the timeline. But maybe not. I don't use FCP/FCS. So maybe someone else can handle that part of your question.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 11:07 AM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Utrecht, NL | Europe 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Chia View Post
How do I capture and transcode to ProRes from HDV when I already save the files on to my harddrive from my SxS card before hand instead of using the camera or a capture deck to do it?
You're thinking of capturing "old school" through the i.Link (firewire) port... which you could do if you recorded to SxS in SP mode (and still have the files on SxS). And yes, those are (pretty much) HDV. However, no one should "abuse" an EX like that. ;-)

If you have the SxS files, use the Log and Transfer or XDCAM Transfer 2.7.0 or the XDCAM EX Clip Browsing Software V2.0 to get your footage into FCP. Read the manuals included for how.

George/
George Kroonder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 12:42 PM   #6
Trustee
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 1,095
I think the root of David's question is editing long GOP versus I frame.

As Perrone pointed out both HDV and XDCAM are long GOP. For those of us using FCP this has some real negative trade offs, [depending on output] potentially long conform times.

I have only recently started using the EX3 so I'm by no means an XDCAM expert, but I have converted (Z1) HDV via firewire to ProRes and this workflow works very well. It enables you to edit in a "frame" based 4:2:2 sequence that no longer requires conforming. However if your output is HDV then working with HDV natively might be the right solution for you.

Obviously you don't want to use the EX1 or EX3 to shoot 25Mb HDV but currently there is no easy way (that I'm aware) to convert XDCAM footage to ProRes, other than using Compressor. It would be nice that when you choose File/import/Sony XDCAM that there was an option to encode directly to ProRes in much the same way as they did with HDV via firewire.

The way to think about ProRes is that in is an "intermediate" codec design for efficient post production. There are no cameras that acquires using this codec and there are no distribution formats that use this codec. So there is no reason to edit in HDV and then use compressor to output that sequence to ProRes. If you want to use ProRes you should encode the XDCAM footage into ProRes [and I believe that the only way to do that once you have transfered the XDCAM footage to your hard drive is using Compressor], then edit in a ProRes sequence and export to whatever format required for distribution.

If you have a video card [Aja or BlackMagic] that support HDSDI you can use the camera or an XDCAM deck to capture the old fashioned way directly to ProRes. This sort of defeats the purpose for going tapeless.

I'm surprised that Apple has not included some kind of utility that enable us to convert to ProRes when we ingest it from the SxS cards without a camera or deck.
Chuck Spaulding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 08:07 PM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Munich Germany , Singapore ,NSW Australia
Posts: 419
Thank you all for this input. Yes the GOP sucks big time. I guess, I will convert it with compressor to ProRes before editing. just one more step before editing...

And if Apple is serious about their ProRes. I think they should get it fix for ingest it from the SxS cards without a camera or deck.
__________________
Website: http://www.Motiononcanvas.com Camera Operator in Sydney Australia and Singapore.
David Chia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 10:07 PM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Chia View Post
And if Apple is serious about their ProRes. I think they should get it fix for ingest it from the SxS cards without a camera or deck.
While they're at it, it would be marvelous if they'd open the codec to other platforms. It would GREATLY simplify the workflow for those of us who are not using FCP/FCP. It's not even pervasive in their own vertical products. I don't think Apple needs to protect the codec anymore. It's an industry standard. Time to share...
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2008, 01:52 AM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 2,053
I've never had a conforming problem with XDCam EX yet, and I've done five one-hour shows so far. Despite the 10-frame GOP format, it cuts as easily as Panasonic's P2 format.

I keep it in native XDCam EX format until the very end, when I render out from Apple's "Color" application.

That way all the image data remains untouched until it needs to be tweaked.

Apple's ProRes format takes up considerably more hard drive space, and I start off with a lot of raw footage. There have also been reports of it not holding up well when it's sent into Color. I haven't personally confirmed this since I haven't had time to do any tests.
__________________
Dean Sensui
Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing
Dean Sensui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2008, 03:49 AM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts: 3,780
I edit in EX codec but set render to AppleProRes. It's a quick and simple change in the EX preset.
Craig Seeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2008, 09:32 AM   #11
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,268
David,
Technically, XDCAM is not HDV, but you are right. In some shape or form it's nothing more than HDV on steroids, even if some XDCAM users or Sony won't admit that. It has the same weaknesses, same color space, same compression (MPEG2), same GOP form. Just square pixels instead of rectangular and 10mbits per second more. Hardly that much difference and XDCAM has to be treated like HDV for all that matters. But this is not a bad thing and XDCAM is "better" than some I-frame based HD camera codecs out there.
Having said that, I have an EX1 and use it on a daily basis with FCP. You have several ways of working with XDCAM in prores.
It all has to start with the transfer tool and after the XDCAM footage has been converted to QT. From there you can:

Work in a XDCAM timeline and set your render to prores
Work in a XDCAM timeline and export to prores before going into Color and other applications.
Convert all your footage into prores using compressor and edit it all in prores.

Whatever you choose don't waste time going to proress HQ. XDCAM or HDV has nothing to gain from it. This should be used when editing higher end codecs like HDCAM SR.
Normal prores will suffice for XDCAM and HDV as far as I know.
Michael Maier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2008, 09:42 AM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Los Angeles CA USA
Posts: 507
I'm with Dean, two national TV series and several commercials later on FCP 6.0.3, pretty much 100% on EX native GOP until rendering out from Color. Not one problem thus far.

Michael, you're forgetting that the EX codec is VBR and not the CBR of HDV. However, I can also confirm that EX to ProRes doesn't make that much difference, unlike HDCamSR to ProRes, as you have mentioned.
__________________
"The content, not the container."
Chris Leong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2008, 10:28 AM   #13
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Leong View Post
I'm with Dean, two national TV series and several commercials later on FCP 6.0.3, pretty much 100% on EX native GOP until rendering out from Color. Not one problem thus far.
Did I understand it right that you select send to Color from a XDCAM timeline and then when finished in Color you render it out to prores and re-import that in FCP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Leong View Post
Michael, you're forgetting that the EX codec is VBR and not the CBR of HDV. However, I can also confirm that EX to ProRes doesn't make that much difference, unlike HDCamSR to ProRes, as you have mentioned.
Yep. But you know what I mean, they have more similarities than differences.
About prores, I was only talking about ProsRes 422 HQ. I think ProRes 422 makes a huge difference for XDCAM footage that is going through color correction in Color and compositing in Shake. But ProRes 422 HQ is overkill as far as I'm concerned.
Michael Maier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2008, 02:55 AM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Munich Germany , Singapore ,NSW Australia
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Maier View Post
David,
Technically, XDCAM is not HDV, but you are right. In some shape or form it's nothing more than HDV on steroids, even if some XDCAM users or Sony won't admit that. It has the same weaknesses, same color space, same compression (MPEG2), same GOP form. Just square pixels instead of rectangular and 10mbits per second more. Hardly that much difference and XDCAM has to be treated like HDV for all that matters. But this is not a bad thing and XDCAM is "better" than some I-frame based HD camera codecs out there.
Having said that, I have an EX1 and use it on a daily basis with FCP. You have several ways of working with XDCAM in prores.
It all has to start with the transfer tool and after the XDCAM footage has been converted to QT. From there you can:

Work in a XDCAM timeline and set your render to prores
Work in a XDCAM timeline and export to prores before going into Color and other applications.
Convert all your footage into prores using compressor and edit it all in prores.

Whatever you choose don't waste time going to proress HQ. XDCAM or HDV has nothing to gain from it. This should be used when editing higher end codecs like HDCAM SR.
Normal prores will suffice for XDCAM and HDV as far as I know.
Thank you for that, I was always doing the 2 option. editing first in XDCAM codec and then go ProRes before color.

So If that is the way, that everybody here is doing then I guess, I am not far behind. I was worried that I was doing something stupid and that I didn't set up in FCP to take advantage of the ProRes codec.

Thank you all for the input...
__________________
Website: http://www.Motiononcanvas.com Camera Operator in Sydney Australia and Singapore.
David Chia is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:03 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network