EX1 & FCP ProRes 422 Question?

[David Chia]

Hi Guys,

Can someone explain to me about this ProRes thing? I know that the EX1 is HDV and that in the Audio/Video Setting tad of FCP I can set the Sequence Present to Apple ProRes and also the Capture Present I can set it to HDV-Apple ProRes.

Question is? How do I capture and transcode to ProRes from HDV when I already save the files on to my harddrive from my SxS card before hand instead of using the camera or a capture deck to do it?

How do you guys do it? Please give me a pointer , I hate to cut it all and edit it and later with the finished product go to compressor to output it as ProRes

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by David Chia

Hi Guys,

Can someone explain to me about this ProRes thing? I know that the EX1 is HDV

Well, to start with, the EX1 is not HDV...

[David Chia]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Well, to start with, the EX1 is not HDV...

it uses GOP if I am not wrong,and it captures 4:2:0 . so what is it then?

So I ask the question on ProRes, Do you have the answer to it? If you say it is not HDV. So how do I transcode it to ProREs from the capture part.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by David Chia

it uses GOP if I am not wrong,and it captures 4:2:0 . so what is it then?

So I ask the question on ProRes, Do you have the answer to it? If you say it is not HDV. So how do I transcode it to ProREs from the capture part.

HDV is specified as:

1440x1080i or 1280x720p, long GOP, 4:2:0 at 25 Mbit/s


Sony XDCam EX (what the EX1/EX3 shoots) is:

1920x1080p, Long GOP, 4:2:0 at 35 Mbit/s nominal with burst to 70 Mbit/s.

If you try to bring this data in as HDV it will fail, because it is not an HDV signal either in size or data rate.


As to your question, you should be able to create .mxf files from the clipbrowser software and simply drop them into the timeline. But maybe not. I don't use FCP/FCS. So maybe someone else can handle that part of your question.

[George Kroonder]

Originally Posted by David Chia

How do I capture and transcode to ProRes from HDV when I already save the files on to my harddrive from my SxS card before hand instead of using the camera or a capture deck to do it?

You're thinking of capturing "old school" through the i.Link (firewire) port... which you could do if you recorded to SxS in SP mode (and still have the files on SxS). And yes, those are (pretty much) HDV. However, no one should "abuse" an EX like that. ;-)

If you have the SxS files, use the Log and Transfer or XDCAM Transfer 2.7.0 or the XDCAM EX Clip Browsing Software V2.0 to get your footage into FCP. Read the manuals included for how.

George/

[Chuck Spaulding]

I think the root of David's question is editing long GOP versus I frame.

As Perrone pointed out both HDV and XDCAM are long GOP. For those of us using FCP this has some real negative trade offs, [depending on output] potentially long conform times.

I have only recently started using the EX3 so I'm by no means an XDCAM expert, but I have converted (Z1) HDV via firewire to ProRes and this workflow works very well. It enables you to edit in a "frame" based 4:2:2 sequence that no longer requires conforming. However if your output is HDV then working with HDV natively might be the right solution for you.

Obviously you don't want to use the EX1 or EX3 to shoot 25Mb HDV but currently there is no easy way (that I'm aware) to convert XDCAM footage to ProRes, other than using Compressor. It would be nice that when you choose File/import/Sony XDCAM that there was an option to encode directly to ProRes in much the same way as they did with HDV via firewire.

The way to think about ProRes is that in is an "intermediate" codec design for efficient post production. There are no cameras that acquires using this codec and there are no distribution formats that use this codec. So there is no reason to edit in HDV and then use compressor to output that sequence to ProRes. If you want to use ProRes you should encode the XDCAM footage into ProRes [and I believe that the only way to do that once you have transfered the XDCAM footage to your hard drive is using Compressor], then edit in a ProRes sequence and export to whatever format required for distribution.

If you have a video card [Aja or BlackMagic] that support HDSDI you can use the camera or an XDCAM deck to capture the old fashioned way directly to ProRes. This sort of defeats the purpose for going tapeless.

I'm surprised that Apple has not included some kind of utility that enable us to convert to ProRes when we ingest it from the SxS cards without a camera or deck.

[David Chia]

Thank you all for this input. Yes the GOP sucks big time. I guess, I will convert it with compressor to ProRes before editing. just one more step before editing...

And if Apple is serious about their ProRes. I think they should get it fix for ingest it from the SxS cards without a camera or deck.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by David Chia

And if Apple is serious about their ProRes. I think they should get it fix for ingest it from the SxS cards without a camera or deck.

While they're at it, it would be marvelous if they'd open the codec to other platforms. It would GREATLY simplify the workflow for those of us who are not using FCP/FCP. It's not even pervasive in their own vertical products. I don't think Apple needs to protect the codec anymore. It's an industry standard. Time to share...

[Dean Sensui]

I've never had a conforming problem with XDCam EX yet, and I've done five one-hour shows so far. Despite the 10-frame GOP format, it cuts as easily as Panasonic's P2 format.

I keep it in native XDCam EX format until the very end, when I render out from Apple's "Color" application.

That way all the image data remains untouched until it needs to be tweaked.

Apple's ProRes format takes up considerably more hard drive space, and I start off with a lot of raw footage. There have also been reports of it not holding up well when it's sent into Color. I haven't personally confirmed this since I haven't had time to do any tests.

[Craig Seeman]

I edit in EX codec but set render to AppleProRes. It's a quick and simple change in the EX preset.

[Michael Maier]

David,
Technically, XDCAM is not HDV, but you are right. In some shape or form it's nothing more than HDV on steroids, even if some XDCAM users or Sony won't admit that. It has the same weaknesses, same color space, same compression (MPEG2), same GOP form. Just square pixels instead of rectangular and 10mbits per second more. Hardly that much difference and XDCAM has to be treated like HDV for all that matters. But this is not a bad thing and XDCAM is "better" than some I-frame based HD camera codecs out there.
Having said that, I have an EX1 and use it on a daily basis with FCP. You have several ways of working with XDCAM in prores.
It all has to start with the transfer tool and after the XDCAM footage has been converted to QT. From there you can:

Work in a XDCAM timeline and set your render to prores
Work in a XDCAM timeline and export to prores before going into Color and other applications.
Convert all your footage into prores using compressor and edit it all in prores.

Whatever you choose don't waste time going to proress HQ. XDCAM or HDV has nothing to gain from it. This should be used when editing higher end codecs like HDCAM SR.
Normal prores will suffice for XDCAM and HDV as far as I know.

[Chris Leong]

I'm with Dean, two national TV series and several commercials later on FCP 6.0.3, pretty much 100% on EX native GOP until rendering out from Color. Not one problem thus far.

Michael, you're forgetting that the EX codec is VBR and not the CBR of HDV. However, I can also confirm that EX to ProRes doesn't make that much difference, unlike HDCamSR to ProRes, as you have mentioned.

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Chris Leong

I'm with Dean, two national TV series and several commercials later on FCP 6.0.3, pretty much 100% on EX native GOP until rendering out from Color. Not one problem thus far.

Did I understand it right that you select send to Color from a XDCAM timeline and then when finished in Color you render it out to prores and re-import that in FCP?

Originally Posted by Chris Leong

Michael, you're forgetting that the EX codec is VBR and not the CBR of HDV. However, I can also confirm that EX to ProRes doesn't make that much difference, unlike HDCamSR to ProRes, as you have mentioned.

Yep. But you know what I mean, they have more similarities than differences.
About prores, I was only talking about ProsRes 422 HQ. I think ProRes 422 makes a huge difference for XDCAM footage that is going through color correction in Color and compositing in Shake. But ProRes 422 HQ is overkill as far as I'm concerned.

[David Chia]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

David,
Technically, XDCAM is not HDV, but you are right. In some shape or form it's nothing more than HDV on steroids, even if some XDCAM users or Sony won't admit that. It has the same weaknesses, same color space, same compression (MPEG2), same GOP form. Just square pixels instead of rectangular and 10mbits per second more. Hardly that much difference and XDCAM has to be treated like HDV for all that matters. But this is not a bad thing and XDCAM is "better" than some I-frame based HD camera codecs out there.
Having said that, I have an EX1 and use it on a daily basis with FCP. You have several ways of working with XDCAM in prores.
It all has to start with the transfer tool and after the XDCAM footage has been converted to QT. From there you can:

Work in a XDCAM timeline and set your render to prores
Work in a XDCAM timeline and export to prores before going into Color and other applications.
Convert all your footage into prores using compressor and edit it all in prores.

Whatever you choose don't waste time going to proress HQ. XDCAM or HDV has nothing to gain from it. This should be used when editing higher end codecs like HDCAM SR.
Normal prores will suffice for XDCAM and HDV as far as I know.

Thank you for that, I was always doing the 2 option. editing first in XDCAM codec and then go ProRes before color.

So If that is the way, that everybody here is doing then I guess, I am not far behind. I was worried that I was doing something stupid and that I didn't set up in FCP to take advantage of the ProRes codec.

Thank you all for the input...