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Old October 16th, 2008, 03:02 PM   #16
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In which case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Nagy View Post
I would very much like to see your test results as soon as possible. It is obvious that with my camera it does not work. Based on a conversation I have had with the optics engineer responsible for this filter at Schneider Optics, it is unlikely that this filter will fix my problem and that the one I have now is not defective. It could still be defective but our assessment of it is that it isn't defective and just is not suited to the issue I am seeing.
So have you ordered another 750nm replacement or have you selected another model? really curious to see results since I also need one in a hurry and can need to make the right choice.

Jus.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 03:28 PM   #17
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Sorry Justin, I don't have any answers for you. I am sending mine back for a refund and living with the problem until something is worked out better for our cameras. I might get another 486 and use it when appropriate and correct its flaws to the best they can be corrected or avoid the focal range where it is a problem.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 06:41 PM   #18
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I believe ...

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Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell View Post
So where does one go to buy one of these filters?
I think you have to email Schneider Optics directly and place an order.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 11:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Nagy View Post
I sent back my B+W 486 to B&H and ordered a Schneider True-Cut 750 77mm from Schneider Optics directly on the direct advice given on these forums by Ryan Avery. It does not work, at least in tungsten only light. Examples:

With no filter, halogen lighting, white balanced on white ceiling provide the light diffusion for the up facing lamp
http://www.atsi.ca/ex3/filter_off.jpg

Same setup with the filter attached
http://www.atsi.ca/ex3/filter_on.jpg

The 486 from B+W worked and made the bag and towel as black as the other items in the shot that show black no matter what. The problem with the 486 was some green vignetting which I wanted to avoid having to correct.

If anyone is contemplating getting the True-Cut, hold off buying it until this is resolved. As it stands, it appears to do nothing in the lighting conditions described. It might have an effect with different light sources although I doubt it.

OK, I'm new to this but what does this filter do [or not] that I'm supposed to be able to see between these two images?
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Old October 16th, 2008, 11:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Nagy View Post
I would very much like to see your test results as soon as possible. It is obvious that with my camera it does not work. Based on a conversation I have had with the optics engineer responsible for this filter at Schneider Optics, it is unlikely that this filter will fix my problem and that the one I have now is not defective. It could still be defective but our assessment of it is that it isn't defective and just is not suited to the issue I am seeing.
I do not understand this. Ned owns the same filter, right?
Why are we getting different info on this filter?
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Old October 16th, 2008, 11:47 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Chuck Spaulding View Post
OK, I'm new to this but what does this filter do [or not] that I'm supposed to be able to see between these two images?
Here is a link to a page where they did a short test with the 486.
ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews
As you can see it makes the shirt black, but it also has the problem of causing a green vignetting problem. The True-cut does not have this desired effect on blacks as was hoped.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 09:31 AM   #22
 
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Why do Adam's test images lack the green edges that the 486 is alleged to give?
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Old October 17th, 2008, 02:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell View Post
Why do Adam's test images lack the green edges that the 486 is alleged to give?
Ask him? Variances in production tolerances?
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Old October 17th, 2008, 03:01 PM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by Les Nagy View Post
Variances in production tolerances?
That stinks!

Are you referring to the filter or your camera?

Maybe your camera's sensors may have a problem. Wouldn't Sony be liable for getting that repaired?
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Old October 17th, 2008, 03:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell View Post
Why do Adam's test images lack the green edges that the 486 is alleged to give?
The answer is simple, and many times mentioned in this forum (by the 486 users, and by Ryan Avery of Schneider): the green cast is only occurring with some specific angle of light incidence, usually at the picture extremities at full wide zoom ranges.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 03:56 PM   #26
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Common problem.

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Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell View Post
That stinks!

Are you referring to the filter or your camera?

Maybe your camera's sensors may have a problem. Wouldn't Sony be liable for getting that repaired?
Adam Wilt's research would seem to suggest that this is not an uncommon problem with digital video sensors. It's still a pain the the ass though.

Jus.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 04:55 PM   #27
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IR is not just a problem of CMOS cameras.

I shot Steve Job's keynote at MWSF last January for a publication for which I write.

Shot with my HVX200.

The images of Steve's brown turtleneck were great.

This is with a CCD camera.

I'm about to reach the point where I would simply just keep in IR750 on the lens at all times and ditch the traditional UV.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 08:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell View Post
That stinks!

Are you referring to the filter or your camera?

Maybe your camera's sensors may have a problem. Wouldn't Sony be liable for getting that repaired?

Sorry, I didn't mean to appear flippant. Production variances of the the camera and /or the filter could interact differently. The lenses won't be perfect replicas of each other even if they are within tolerances set by engineering and QC. Sensors from the centre of a wafer have very different characteristics than those from the edges. Perhaps I got one of the ones that exceeded IR sensitivity than most others. Filters are made within tolerances too and who knows what is an acceptable variance for them? I have a sample of one of each so I cannot say why my camera and filter exhibited the problem and the one tested elsewhere apparently didn't.

I actually am considering getting Sony to look at my camera because the problems with blacks I am experiencing more often are not subtle. I suspect that perhaps my camera is flawed or perhaps more correctly is on one end of the range of IR sensitivity. It is definitely worth looking into and I will when I can at the earliest.

Having said all that, I have the confirming discussion from the Schneider Optics engineer who agrees that it appears that both filter designs are not suited, or more likely more reliably suited, to the needs of the EX series cameras.

If someone has images showing the True-cut fixing the kind of problem I have shown with my images on an EX3, or of a 486 on an EX3 that works and also doesn't cause green vignetting, I am sure everyone else would love to see them so we can narrow down causes and solutions.

Last edited by Les Nagy; October 17th, 2008 at 09:51 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2008, 03:10 PM   #29
 
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I've done a few preliminary tests of my own. Using my EX3, I see the problem only part of the time. Not all black on all fabrics come out reddish.

This being the case, is it a fabric issue, a dye issue, or is it a combination of the two?

I remember back in the day when I was a commercial photographer, we had issues getting certain colored fabrics in our photographs rendered accurately. Eastman Kodak developed a film especially designed to illuminate the problem. It's been so long ago, I can't remember the name of the film stock. In any case, it was a welcomed addition to the arsenal.

It's dejavu all over again.
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Old October 19th, 2008, 04:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell View Post
This being the case, is it a fabric issue, a dye issue, or is it a combination of the two?
I believe it is a dye issue, or the type of dye that is used on certain fabrics. So I guess it could be a fabric issue indirectly. I see the same result. Not all black fabrics have the problem but many do.

I have been hoping that those who claim that they have the problem solved with the True-Cut filter would post images of their success. We really need to figure out the best solution for all EX owners.
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