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Old December 27th, 2008, 04:28 PM   #76
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Not sure that's really true, not in terms of sharpness etc anyway, pretty sure Canon or Nikon top-grade stills lenses would be in at least the same ballpark as Zeiss/Cookes etc., it's focus breathing etc., where they fall down. I've used Nikon on the Phantom HD and they look top-notch, and haven't there been some features shot where Nikons were used a lot I seem to recall?
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Old December 27th, 2008, 04:40 PM   #77
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Not sure that's really true, not in terms of sharpness etc anyway, pretty sure Canon or Nikon top-grade stills lenses would be in at least the same ballpark as Zeiss/Cookes etc., it's focus breathing etc., where they fall down. I've used Nikon on the Phantom HD and they look top-notch, and haven't there been some features shot where Nikons were used a lot I seem to recall?
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Yes, if you use them as locked down PRIMES that's fine. It's what happens when you need to use them like you would a film camera, that they start to fall down. Pull focusing, rack focusing, etc. Stuff that no one sees on stills.

I've shot canon and nikon still. Back before they recorded to cards. Canon pissed me off enough with the mount changes from my AE1 to my T70, to my EOS10s, that I abandoned the entire lot and went to a Nikon F4s.

I'm happy to buy Nikon glass, but I'll leave Canon to those who haven't been burned. And both need to stay out of the cinema camera business as far as I'm concerned.
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Old December 28th, 2008, 11:09 AM   #78
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Apparently, you are unfamiliar with Canon's upper end.. They produce the front ends for a great many studio camreas. They don't do the VTR sections, but those front ends approach 6 figures.

I don't think people are falling over themselves to mount Canon glass on REDs. I get the impression that Cookes, Arris, and Zeiss glass is serving the need pretty well.
What is "front ends" - is that a euphemism for "lenses"? If so, I'm fairly familiar with their line-up, and I don't really see where your point is actually making a point...lenses are not cameras. The distribution of more recording devices (a euphemism for "cameras"...) works to their advantage and does not cannibalize their top line, on the contrary, more "recording devices" in the field works to their advantage.

There is nothing in a full sensor prosumer program that would cannibalize their top line lenses - on the contrary, they would probably open up the market to a broader audience.

Just as RED has enticed users into paying more for lenses than for cameras. Just as Canon broadcast lenses are being used on far less expensive RED camera systems. Recording devices are getting better and cheaper. Lens technology still maintains its value (though this too may change, as RED is starting the process of deflating price points in the lens space as well...).

But Canon can actually be the beneficiary of all of these innovations in cheaper recording devices. Because lenses are much more of a core business for Canon than cameras -- at every level, consumer, prosumer, and professional, this is true. I had a conversation with a Canon developer at NAB who made this quite clear.

Lenses are where they make their money, and cameras are really a vehicle for them to sell more lenses. That's their model - that's what the Canon rep told me. For every cheapie Rebel they sell, as a f'r instance, 3 expensive lenses fly off the shelf.

As for your comment that people are not falling all over themselves to mount Canon glass on RED cameras, well that is just flat-out wrong. Actually, there is an enormous demand for a device which will permit the use of L lenses on RED cameras - not everyone can afford Cooke, Arri, or Zeiss glass, and Canon L lenses are considered a very desirable alternative. Also, there are quite a few applications where L lens electronics capabilities are very desirable - there is an underwater housing manufacturer who has based his product line on the marriage of L glass with RED systems.

There are many situations where L glass would be preferable to cine glass, for weight reduction, price, electronics...many documentary situations make these lenses a desirable alternative. These Canon adapters have already traveled around the world with Rodney Charters...

reelshow

I own a set of Arri Master Primes, and they are not always the right tool for the job, not matter how outstanding the image. They are very sensitive pieces of equipment. You can't throw them in a backpack and take them around the world. You can't screw on filters on the fly, and they require the additional weight of a mattebox.

There are very good reasons why these are not the only lenses that I own or use on a RED camera, and I know the user base pretty well by now. Nikon, RED lenses, and Canon lenses are probably being used more than Zeiss, Arri, or Cooke, on a day-to-day basis because of the reasons listed above.

Anyway, this is getting off topic. I don't know what Canon will come out with - I didn't say their 5D Mark II was a *good* video camera, its shortcomings for video production are fairly obvious, but I do think it is a pointer towards future prospects of what Canon could possibly bring to the prosumer space, if they wanted to.

SCARLET will be the camera to compete with, in that future space. In fact, they are making a full frame SCARLET that will only window my expensive S35 Arri lenses. The sensor will *only* be covered by full frame 35mm lenses, such as Canon L glass.

And my primary point, which you seem to have missed, was that Canon is the best-positioned company to compete with them, not Sony nor Panny, because lenses are their strong suit and recording devices are a lower margin, lower volume sales product for them. They do not make a $250,000 recording device, like Sony. They can afford to make a $10,000 full frame prosumer camera and then sell their L lenses like fiends...

The full frame SCARLET will have a Canon-adaptable mount built into it - it won't be restricted to a PL mount that is adaptable to other lenses, as RED ONE does. The future RED products will be more lens-agnostic than the current RED ONE. So Canon stands to sell more of these lenses, upon SCARLET's release, anyway. Whether or how they choose to compete with SCARLET at the "recording device" level, remains to be seen.
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Old December 28th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #79
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The PL mount on the RED One is not "adaptable" to others, it comes off and is replaced by the Nikon, so no reason why you couldn't put an EOS front on it is there? Just the lack of iris control. That was always my understanding, or am I mistaken?
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Old December 28th, 2008, 11:40 AM   #80
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well, "just lack of iris control" has meant that the original 3rd-party mount has remained elusive and in development for about two years...and been the source of much controversy over its impact on voiding RED's warranty. So the Nikon mount, with no such problems, became available about six months after RED's release, while the Canon (Birger) mount is still only shipping in limited quantities, two years later. Another 3rd-party developer is shipping a Canon dumb mount, but that means that you can only set the aperture by having on-site a Canon camera, setting the aperture, and then switching the lens to the RED camera. Doable but certainly inconvenient.

So, no, the path to Canon L glass on RED cameras has been anything but easy...

Anyway, this is veering really off-topic, so I think that anymore questions about how RED works and how 3rd party accessories work with it, should be re-directed to the RED forum, and leave this thread to the Canon H1 v. Sony EX-1 debate. I only brought up RED because I think Canon is well-suited to surpass the EX-1 and compete with SCARLET in the same prosumer space -- but that's futuristic thinking, and this thread is about right now...
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Old December 28th, 2008, 12:48 PM   #81
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Well, if we are talking about FUTURE cameras... i have to absolutely agree, i think canon is positioning themselves to introduce a 35mm sized video camera, most likely the replacements for the current xh and xl.

The ONLY thing stopping sony or pany from doing this is the fact that they have 100-200k cameras that have to be protected from lower end offerings!

Canon makes far more money from lenses than they do from camera body's so it makes sense that they would want more devices using their 35mm lenses... AKA video cameras!
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Old December 28th, 2008, 01:20 PM   #82
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But 35mm sized sensors are not well suited to a lot of traditional video applications. Take TV news for example, even with small sized sensors and big depths of field news crews struggle to get shots in focus. For many live action, sports and news applications the shallow DOF of 35mm sized sensors will not be well suited.

Now I may have this wrong but wouldn't a 20x zoom (the ENG standard these days) be huge to work with a 35mm sensor?

I struggle to get excited about RED. I'm not saying that it isn't a good camera it's just that it doesn't fit with what I do and the way I make money, however the Scarlet concept, that's a different matter all together. I hope they pull it off.
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Old December 28th, 2008, 03:34 PM   #83
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But 35mm sized sensors are not well suited to a lot of traditional video applications.
But if you don't want a 35mm sensor, aren't we already living in an embarrassment of riches? Buy an EX-1/EX-3/HPX-any flavor and be happy. Those are all great cameras. I have a RED ONE, and I still shoot Canon XH A1s for our bread and butter corporate jobs. Laziness, faster post-processing, "good enough" for the price the client is willing to pay...these are all good reasons.

The right tool for the right job.

To return to the topic, I think the EX-3 is most likely a great wildlife tool - I've only shot an EX-1 and loved it. But it will be eclipsed within a year. So the question is, do you want a "good enough" camera now, a camera that's great but will not be best in breed in a very short window, or....?
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Old December 28th, 2008, 03:39 PM   #84
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I've still yet to have a really good look at the EX3, but from the brief trial I had with an EX1 it was a terrible camera for wildlife because of motion issue (wildlife doesn't half move a lot!) But, maybe I had a bad camera or a bad day (actually I had 2 cameras and a couple of days) and when I shoot some flying birds on the EX3 and take to a post house it'll look as good as my 700. Hope to do so in Jan, and crossing my fingers 'cos my back's hurting!
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Old December 28th, 2008, 04:36 PM   #85
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So the question is, do you want a "good enough" camera now, a camera that's great but will not be best in breed in a very short window, or....?
The implication here is that Scarlet will change the field. Problem is Scarlett is vaporware. It'd be a huge mistake for anyone to bank on something or plan for something that doesn't exist. The other thing is Convergent Design has offered what's effectively an upgrade path for the EX series and should keep the line at the forefront for some time yet.
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Old December 28th, 2008, 07:06 PM   #86
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I'm coming in late to this thread, but I thought I'd share my $0.02.

I have to admit, we just purchased an EX3 (and Letus Ultimate 35mm adaptor) and it makes me very nervous doing it. I wholeheartedly agree that all signs point to Canon releasing a full featured video camera with a 35mm sensor that takes 35mm lenses. This could be a game changing piece of gear. The only issue I could see was that it might be difficult for them to fit a proper video camera style zoom control.

In our case, we just couldn't wait any longer for the "perfect camera" to come out. We started looking about 3 years ago. Our aging Canon XL-1S failed on us this summer and that' what motivated us to finally bite the bullet and purchase a new camera.
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Old December 28th, 2008, 09:13 PM   #87
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The implication here is that Scarlet will change the field.
SCARLET will change the field unless somebody else changes it first (and my money is on Canon, for the reasons that I've already listed...). I don't think that's a big stretch. As Mitchell says, it makes it a tough challenge to pick a camera now at these price points, knowing that the others will be forced to do something to keep up. I'm betting that there are many people sharing that concern over the possibility of buyer's remorse...

So Ralph, did you get your question answered yet??
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Old December 28th, 2008, 11:17 PM   #88
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Hi guys,
I have already expressed my opinion in here a few weeks ago. Since then I have been shooting every day for a few hours and got some more experience with the EX3 so I would like to say it again:
The Sony PMW EX3 is IMHO probably the ultimate camera for wildlife and I believe it will take a while before this will change.
I mostly use Nikon lenses and the quality of the footage is simply mind blowing.
It is easy to nail the focus even when using very long lenses such as the Nikon 600 MF F5.6 ED (which I use most of the time) thanks to the coloured peaking function and the great LCD + viewfinder combo.
It is easy to nail the exposure using the zebra and histogram which are displayed on the LCD.
Slow motion is awesome at 720 25p 60fps. (PAL)
I even got some excellent flight shots of big bats (Flying Foxes) is slow motion and was amazed by the servo AF ability of this camera. (this was done with the stock lens).

A major advantage of this camera over the RED/SCARLET for wildlife work is the x5.5 crop factor due to the smaller sensor which for me is absolutely a must shooting mostly birds and small animals.
BTW – I am using the EX3 with the Flash XDR at 100Mbs 4:2:2 so I don’t see how any TV channel will have a problem with the quality of the footage. (I feel the quality this camera delivers even without the Flash XDR is great but just to be on the safe side…)

Will upload some footage in a few weeks after I get a Mac Pro and FCP and learn how to use it...(-:

Just my 2 cents.


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Old December 28th, 2008, 11:51 PM   #89
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I'm betting that there are many people sharing that concern over the possibility of buyer's remorse...
There can't be buyer's remorse, because Scarlet does not exist neither does a Canon or Nikon product that represents any kind of dam breaking. There's nothing to be remorseful about. These Japanese conglomerates are semi nationalized institutions and source a lot of parts and materials from the same manufacturers, don't expect them to cannibalize their own markets any time soon. They release products and technology at a rate they control, it's like skin peeling off an onion. We're the hungry little chicks chirping for a worm. Before I mix another metaphor I just offer that I'm not putting words in your mouth Meryem, I noticed you parsed it carefully, "Concern over the possibility".

Last edited by Brian Luce; December 29th, 2008 at 02:48 AM.
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