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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:00 PM   #1
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EX1 to Blue-ray Workflow

Hi Everyone..(This is my first post)

How do I get the exact quality from the ex1 to blu-ray. Is this possible? I have tryied and tried many ways and I feel that I might be close. I have taken 3 short clips (2 min total) from the ex1 (1920x1080P 30fps) and imported into final cut via xdcam transfer. I than imported them into compressor using these settings...

File Format = mpeg 2
Stream Usage = Blueray
Video Format = HD 1920x080
Frame Rate= 29.97
Field Dominance= Progressive
Average Bit Rate = 34
Max Bit Rate = 40

Note: The difference between file sizes for the mov and the m2v file are aprox 5 - 6 megs (mov being greater)

I than open up Encore with these new settings...

Project Settings = Blu-ray
Television Standard = NTSC
Codec = MPEG-2
Dimensions = 1920x1080
Frame Rate = 29.97
Automatic Transcoding / MAx Audio/Video Bitrate = 40MBPS

The Difference...

Encore accepted both mov and m2v files. The results are that the color of both formats were not as brilliant as what I saw straight from the XDCAM (via component), Mov files looked darker than the m2v files. Ether this is not achievable or I am missing something. There is a noticeable difference between viewing the 2 formats and the ex1 connected via component to my TV. The Blueray player model that Im using is the Sony BDP 350. Just bought it. I'm also using Final Cut Studio and Adobe CS4. If I cant get this to work, than I would rather take back the blueray player, stick with SD and wait until there is a proper workflow that I can give my clients exact bluray results as my ex1 using all formats (1080, 720, frame rates, etc)

Is this possible?

1 more thing... I do not have a blurray burner, I have been burning on to DVD

Thanks all for reading : )
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Old December 10th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #2
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Sounds like you have everything you need to make it work. I'm interested in an answer as well. Did you try reading through these threads yet?

Taming the Wild Blu, yonder...
Taming the Wild Blu, part 2...
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Old December 11th, 2008, 12:07 AM   #3
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For starters Encore CS4 4.0.1 does not support 1920x1080/30p. According to the notes in the Encore manual, if you do import 30p, Encore transcodes to interlaced i.e. 1920x1080/29.97i. To get around this add a 2:3 pull-down (in FCP or Cinema Tools) to maintain the quality of your 30p source and Encore will accept this .mov file without any transcoding.

There is no need to send you FCP sources through Compressor and then have Encore transcode again. This amounts to two transcoding sessions and so the most likely cause color shifts and the loss of quality you see.

FCP with the exception of transitions and/or VFX and even with conforming will leave your EXn signal untouched when exported. Encore imports the 1920x1080i .mov file directly. As near as I can tell its Automatic transcoding is transparent.

As for the data rate, the EXn rate is 35Mb/s and so I've maintained this same data rate in Encore because it automatically accepts the EXn's Long GOP frames. Setting Encore to 40Mb/s is not going to improve upon the EXn source data rate of 35Mb/s. Again another unnecessary transcoding process and extra time.

I've imported several projects from my EX3 .mov 1920x1080 file format directly into Encore and used the automatic setting to build Blu-ray projects. To my eye, as viewed on a Pioneer Kuro 50FD plasma and a Sony BDP-S300 Blu-ray player, the EX3 quality is maintained and truly amazing. I use a Sony BWU-200S blu-ray burner and the Encore forums confirm that the new BWU-300S also works. Cheers!
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Old December 11th, 2008, 02:47 AM   #4
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I believe Blu-Ray only supports 1080p 24 not 1080p 30 - so your only other option is 1080i 60fps. Check out the BD specs online. I'd like to see workflow options as well, as I am doing both BD and DVD right now on macbookpro having shot 1080p 30 myself.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 10:15 AM   #5
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Pretty sure 30p is supported. Search thru this site and the Bill Ravens posts, I believe he read the white papers.

Have you tried the CRAM presets for Compressor. I purchased them earlier this week, but haven't had time to process a clip yet. Buried in there under Squeeze-like > MPEG 1/2 > Bluray_1080 & Bluray_720 settings. Described as similar to Squeexe Preset, whatever that means.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 11:02 AM   #6
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Thanks Mitchell for the links. When my hard drives are full I will consider buying an external blu-ray for storage. I feel like I do have everything (if not almost) but I hear from another forum that I can not get the same quality from my ex1 to dvd or blu-ray. Someone else has mentioned that when they burned on bluray rather than dvd, they got better results from there panasonic (hvx) hooked up via component to their tv.

Barry, thank you for making me believe that it is possible! When you imported from the ex3 .mov 1920x1080 to encore, was it 30p? Also, I am some what new to this but can you please direct me to information on how to add a 2:3 pull-down in FCP. I will check Lynda.com for this. When you said CS4 does not support 1920x1080/30p, I thought 30 frame rate was the same as 29.97? oh. Barry, Is there a difference in quality burning on DVD or Blu-ray? My HD projects are around 10 min's long.

Greg... my trial and error samples are 1920x1080 60i and 1920x1080 30p. Here are my Blu-ray player specs...

Video Output
BD-ROM:
Component (480i/480p/720p/1080i (60Hz))
HDMI (480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p (60Hz))
HDMI (720p/1080p (24Hz))
DVD-Video:
Component (480i/480p (60Hz))
HDMI (480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p (60Hz))
DVD R/RW, BD R/RE Non Copy Protected
Component (576i/576p/720p/1080i (60Hz))
HDMI (576i/576p/720p/1080i/1080p (60Hz))
720p/1080i/1080p DVD Upscaling
Cinema tuned (Theatre Room/Brighter Room/Standard Room): BRAVIA Cinema Mode
NR: BNR, FNR, MNR
Precision Cinema HD Upscale
x.v.Color
PhotoTV HD
BD: HD (24Hz) (24p True Cinema)
HD 24Hz to 60Hz conversion
HD and SD (60Hz)
DVD: 
60Hz
TV Type Default Setting: 16:9 Aspect Ratio
OSD:
TV System Default Setting: 60Hz
It will play 1080 30p. I to work off a macbook pro and was suggested by many to shoot 1920x1080 30p rather than 1920x1080 60i.

Andrew...Please let me know how cram works for you. Looks interesting.

Again thank you all : )
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Old December 11th, 2008, 11:28 AM   #7
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I have been exporting my sequence from FCP to Quicktime using no compression. Then I use toast 9 to burn (mpeg4). Works great (1080 30p works as well).
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Old December 11th, 2008, 11:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Rendulic View Post
Andrew...Please let me know how cram works for you. Looks interesting.
Will do.

I also seem to remember that you can burn the BPAV folder direct to Bluray and it would be playable in the Playstation 3... but I would imagine that would consist of unedited files, unless you can write them back to mp4 now. Which I think you can do?
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Old December 11th, 2008, 12:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Rendulic View Post
Barry, thank you for making me believe that it is possible! When you imported from the ex3 .mov 1920x1080 to encore, was it 30p? Also, I am some what new to this but can you please direct me to information on how to add a 2:3 pull-down in FCP. I will check Lynda.com for this. When you said CS4 does not support 1920x1080/30p, I thought 30 frame rate was the same as 29.97? oh. Barry, Is there a difference in quality burning on DVD or Blu-ray? My HD projects are around 10 min's long.
Hi Michael, so far I have done projects at 1920x1080/24p and 1920x1080/29.95i. The latter is used for projects that require delivery on Blu-ray and SD-DVD.

Adding 2:3 pull-down to your 1920x1080/ 30p source is essentially an industry standard process of duplicating fields in such a way that the even and odd field are the same and can be viewed by interlaced TV's. It is not an easy topic discuss here. You will have to dig into the FCP and Cinema Tools user manuals. Once you get some understanding of how it works. the actual process is pretty easy. It doesn't take a lot of CPU time to do the pull-down conversion.

Larry Jordon has done a pretty good tutorial for Lynda.com called "HD Workflows for FCP Studio 2.0". That tutorial covers basic workflow as well as the 2:3 pull-down conversion process. Finally, Chad Perkins also for Lynda.com is a must called "Encore CS4 Essential Training." Encore CS4 is a huge improvement over CS3 but still has some very particular ways for creating motion menus and buttons, that is were the tutorial nails done the details for obtaining a working Blu-ray disc. I sure hope Apple would deliver a Blu-ray solution for DVDSP, I've never had to dig into its manuals because it's intuitive. Encore still has a way to go.


Hope this puts you in the right direction. Cheers!
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Old December 12th, 2008, 12:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Hollister View Post
Pretty sure 30p is supported. Search thru this site and the Bill Ravens posts, I believe he read the white papers.
Sorry, 30p is not part of the Blu-ray spec.

Public Specs
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Old December 12th, 2008, 12:26 AM   #11
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Barry, please don't flame me for saying this, but I disagree that a 2:3 pull down is used for converting from non-drop frame (30 fps) to drop-frame (29.97). A 2:3 pull down (actually I thought it was 3:2) is used when going from 30 fps to 24 fps and visa versa. It came about when people shot on film and wanted to convert to video for television broadcast.

I'm no expert, and I apologize if I've got this wrong. :)
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Old December 12th, 2008, 08:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Sorry, 30p is not part of the Blu-ray spec.

Public Specs
I only shoot 30p with my ex1 and burn all my movies onto blu-ray media and then play them on playstation 3. Works every time and looks great.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 08:30 AM   #13
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Mitchell, not to worry. One of the nice things about these forums is that people are respectful and understanding because we are all learning from one another about this new technology. Indeed, I have also read articles and tutorials that refer to this as 3:2 pull-down. In fact there are two variations of this in the industry as described in Apple's FCP user manual:

2:3:2:3 pull-down The most commonly supported pull-down pattern for NTSC devices.
This option is ideal for recording to an NTSC device such as standard definition
television, an MPEG-2 encoding device, or a high-end finishing system. See also
pull-down insertion, pull-down pattern.

2:3:3:2 pull-down The pull-down pattern used by DV devices that support advanced
pull-down. See also pull-down insertion, pull-down pattern.

You have accurately explained the non-drop frame and drop frame part. To your explanation let's add Sony's definition in Page 129 of the manufacturer's EX3 manual quoted as follows:

Images of 50P/50i/25P are output as PAL signals,
those of 59.94P/59.94i/29.97P are output as
NTSC signals, and those of 23.98P are output as
2-3 pulled-down NTSC signals.

Cheers!
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Old December 12th, 2008, 08:45 AM   #14
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Thanks for clearing that up Barry! Much appreciated! (I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of just reading the FCP manuals.....I need to learn to use Cinema Tools as well. I've never even launched that program before)

One last thing....

Since I'm new to HD (aren't we all?), are there any standards that the broadcasters use? For example, do most pro's still shoot/edit in drop frame for HD? My guess is yes, so that it better fits "actual time" so their shows are the correct length, etc...

Just trying to learn. :)
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Old December 12th, 2008, 09:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Dankoff View Post
I only shoot 30p with my ex1 and burn all my movies onto blu-ray media and then play them on playstation 3. Works every time and looks great.
Yes I do the same on mine but the PS3 plays formats besides Blu-ray. Just putting 30p onto a BD data disk and calling it Blu-ray is not correct.

When a disk is authored to BDMV, 30p is not part of the spec.
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